Jonathan Hughes: [00:00:00] Change, big historical change. It doesn’t always happen quickly or dramatically. It’s not always something that’s breaking news. And despite how we think about these things, it’s usually not the result of one powerful person’s actions. It can happen through incremental changes in circumstances, technology, or people’s attitudes.
And these incremental changes don’t happen on their own. They’re almost always the result of hard work from lots of different sectors and ultimately individual human beings. Until one day you look around and things are not quite how they used to be. Take the Americans with Disabilities Act, or the ADA.
The ADA is a landmark piece of legislation that put into law many of [00:01:00] the anti-discrimination measures and accommodations that protect people with disabilities, and it was the result of over a decade of sustained political organizing and advocacy, including court battles, letter-writing campaigns, even sit-ins.
Or look a generation later at the ABLE program, providing tax advantage savings for individuals with disabilities. It started when a Virginia dad, Stephen Beck Jr., and a few other parents of children with disabilities began to organize themselves around the idea that there should be a way for their children to save money.
A small and determined band of loving parents took action and changed things for their children for the better. They began contacting lawmakers, meeting with representatives, and advocating for their families. And by 2014, President Obama signed the ABLE legislation tasking states with creating their ABLE programs.
Now, MEFA offers Attainable, the Massachusetts ABLE plan, [00:02:00] and we, along with our partner, Fidelity Investments, have worked to build awareness of this important tax advantage savings program that protects federally means-tested benefits for individuals with disabilities. And one of the ways we’ve done that is by holding a conference mainly geared towards organizations.
This year, one of the speakers won the hearts of attendees, and I knew you, the MEFA podcast followers, should hear directly from this guest about how all of these past efforts are ushering in a new reality for people with disabilities. In 2026, we’re living in a time of record employment for individuals with disabilities, along with all of the benefits that come with it, not just for people with disabilities, but for companies, communities, and for society in general.
But I don’t want to tell someone else’s story. So let’s meet our guest and let him tell it.
Hale Pulsifer: So my name’s Hale Pulsipher. I’ve been at Fidelity Investments for 23 years. And I am currently [00:03:00] on the Workplace Insights team. And what is that? So the Workplace Insights team is a group of us that analyzes what our customers are thinking about, are concerned about are excited about.
We have a really good sense of what do people care about, and what do they want, and how do we evolve to help meet those needs. That’s what we do at at Workplace Insights.
Jonathan Hughes: Can I ask, what, what was, the path that brought you to Fidelity then?
Hale Pulsifer: What– A-after, aft- after college, I spent 10 years in a rock band touring the country, signed to Atlantic Records, 250 shows a year.
And, a-and the reason why that’s important to the story is because it was in doing that I realized I thought I loved drumming and performing and making music, and what I learned I really loved underneath it all was developing a business plan and growing a business and tracking our growth.
And, we were the only rock band out there that had a balance sheet and a statement of cash flows and an income statement. But anyway, [00:04:00] that, that experience following my heart to music led my heart to business. Then I went to Babson. There I found Fidelity and Fidelity is where I’ve been ever since.
And then I had the opportunity to manage a young person on the autism spectrum. And I knew very little about that, but I studied, and what I learned is that if I were willing to make some very subtle adjustments to how I managed and how I communicated and how I integrated the team we could unlock tremendous productivity, and that’s just professionally and personally gratifying for everybody.
Companies all over the country are realizing this and have neurodiversity hiring programs. But I digress. The main takeaway from that important part of the path is that traditional perceptions of disability, implying that if you’re disabled you have limited employment potential those can be very wrong.
Spectacularly wrong. A-a-and then that led [00:05:00] me to help with the growth and formation of an employee resource group for Fidelity’s, disabled employees and caregiving employees. And we got this thing started and up, and it took off. It was the fastest growing ERG in Fidelity history.
Lest you think it I, like I’m taking any credit for the growth it’s not that. It’s a combination of disability. One in four people have a disability. It’s twenty-seven, twenty-eight percent. It’s everywhere. And then even more if you consider caregivers. But- We were coming out of a place, like a lot of companies, where we don’t really talk about that at work, not openly.
And then you create a platform for people to, engage and talk about it. And that’s step one. Like that, that make– Now we have a platform for employees to really find their voice, right? That’s awesome. But, like we didn’t stop there. We went very quickly to customer experience. So if we just stopped at, “I’m a caregiver,” or, “I happen to be deaf, and I’m thriving here too,” then it’s what a lot of employee [00:06:00] resource groups do.
But we just went very quickly to okay, so I happen to be thriving here at Fidelity and I’m deaf. I can help us understand what experiences are for our deaf customers. I can help what ex- I can help evolve our experiences for caregiving customers, for customers aging into blindness.” So it just, we went very quickly from like formation to customer impact, and in fact, it was too much for us.
So going back to the business case days, we wrote a business case to say, “We need to create a full-time team of paid people doing this because the opportunities are just too vast. Too many different disabilities among our employees,” or sorry, “among our customers to be ignored.” A lot of companies are like, “We love our customers.
We know everything about our customers. We know your personality. We know your birthday. We know you.” Oh, yeah? Can your customers read your statements? Oh, I think so.” You can’t say you love our customers unless you are not only considering, but prioritizing disability. [00:07:00] because for a lot of customers, like that’s the deal breaker.
If I’m, if I happen to be blind and I use a screen reader, if your website is not accessible, it doesn’t matter how great your product is, it doesn’t matter how well you’re priced. If you’re not accessible, I’m not going to do business with you, period. Period. End of story, period. So like we do all these great services, let’s just open the doors to more people.
So anyway, that became a full-time job and that’s basically what I’ve been doing ever since.
Jonathan Hughes: Recently, we had our second annual Attainable Conference where we had partners and speakers, and you were one of the speakers there, and everyone was telling me, “You have to get Hail on the podcast. He did this amazing presentation.”
Why don’t you just tell me or tell everybody what the message was from that presentation that you did?
Hale Pulsifer: The main thing is like macro trends- … that are involving disability, that involve innovation, and how that influences [00:08:00] employment. You put all those things together and then companies find themselves at a decision point.
This is a thing, and I see it now, and what do I do about it?” So- Facilitating those conversations, encouraging people to consider and have those conversations is like my favorite part about what I do. And I’ll just g- I’ll give you one quick example, right? Yeah. We all, we’ve all heard of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
And from a building perspective, we know that buildings need to be ADA requirement, or ADA compliant. Great. If I’m a restaurant in the North End of Boston with cobblestone streets, I’m ADA compliant by having a ramp in the back that a person with a wheelchair can have access to and roll into, right?
Yep. But what’s the experience? The experience is they roll down a cobblestone alley, past the dumpsters, into the service entrance, and then up through the back. And meanwhile, what does everybody else get? You walk through the main entrance. There’s a friendly host greeting you. Those are not equal experiences.
But it’s [00:09:00] ADA compliant. So how do we go beyond ADA compliant to something that’s awesome? That’s a that’s an example of something that, that we think about. So let- let’s just talk about disability for a second. Sure. because if this conversation is successful w- with luck, we’re inviting people to think very differently about disability, and what it is.
So for sure it’s an identity group. But that’s just the beginning. With disability, there’s three critical factors that define us. First, we’re the largest minority group in the world. We’re the largest, one in four, and that number surprises people. One in four? Wait, I don’t see one in four.
And no, you don’t. And the reason you don’t is because 70% of disability is invisible. You don’t know my disability unless I show you or tell you what it is. Disability is also, hard to perceive because people age into disability. So in your day and my day, we work with colleagues, and we run our errands, and we do the things that we do, and we may not see [00:10:00] the aging populations that are rapidly developing hearing loss, vision loss, mobility loss.
People who age into disability are still customers, right? So we’re the largest minority group, identity group in the world. That’s the first factor. The second factor is fluidity. Fluidity. We are the most inclusive minority group because anyone can join at any time. You can break your wrist.
You can have an accident. There, you can become temporarily disabled, and then, welcome to the family. People come in, people leave, but anyone at any time can join our community. So that’s factor two, fluidity. And factor three is innovation. Innovation. W- we think of ourselves often as being naturally practiced innovators.
And if you don’t believe me, just go break your hand. Please don’t- … go break your hand. But if you did, or if you ever have, have you ever had a serious ankle?
Jonathan Hughes: I’ve had a broken wrist.
Hale Pulsifer: Okay.
Jonathan Hughes: That’s it. Yeah.
Hale Pulsifer: Dominant hand, non-dominant hand?
Jonathan Hughes: N- thankfully non-dominant [00:11:00] hand.
Hale Pulsifer: So imagine if it were your dominant hand, and you’re an adult.
You get dressed differently, you drive differently, you order and carry your coffee differently. You have to learn to do everything differently. There are creative problem-solving components of your brain that just get activated and are firing all the time. Now imagine that’s your life.
If you’re disabled, you tend to live in a world designed for non-disabled people in a lot of ways, and we can either complain about it, which we often do, or we can find a hack, a creative way around it. So disability is closely linked to not only innovative thinking, but innovations, period.
There are so many disability-inspired innovations that we all use every day we would not have if it weren’t for disability. The touch screen had been around, but it was never on a smartphone until someone designed a smartphone to work with someone who had low, low dexterity and couldn’t type on the old BlackBerrys, right?
The electric toothbrush, same [00:12:00] reason. We all used to do it manually. The electric toothbrush came along for fine motor disability. Audiobooks which you know, which used to be what they books on tape, they’d call them, for, to participate in education if you happen to be blind.
But now even this podcast is an audio e- experience, right? Like, all of this has taken off from that idea. Texting is like a, the current evolution of what used to be the, the TTY typing to, or voice to typing or typing to voice t- or type, sorry, typing a message, having it turn into a signal, and turn up as typing on the other end.
That’s old TTY tech, which is, like, how texting was introduced for people who were deaf, hard of hearing, and not participating. Even the typewriter it’s, there’s a love story behind the typewriter and somebody who was blind and somebody who wasn’t, and wanted… if we’re having a secret affair, and I want to send you a note, but I’m blind I don’t want to dictate that to somebody.
So that urgency and desperation and love, [00:13:00] passion, created a machine where I could make words even though I can’t see, and that is the ancestor of the QWERTY, layout, which is on, was on typewriters, and now is on your laptop, and even whatever smartphone you have, right? Like, all of that was once inspired by disability.
So the point is disability is closely linked to innovation.
Jonathan Hughes: And is that why recognizing The value of disability and people with that experience of disability is good for companies
Hale Pulsifer: Great for companies. It’s great for companies. Yeah. It y- y– I feel and I’m saying this carefully, but it’s just my personal experience, that I feel like a lot of companies are kind of getting there, but still sort of getting it wrong.
Recognizing that there’s value in different community identities. But like how do we unlock that value to make a more awesome customer experience? Disability for sure is an identity, right? And identity is mostly cultural and familial, and value is different. But with [00:14:00] disability it’s a little different, because we’re an identity that’s mostly invisible.
We’re an identity that’s fluid. We’re an identity that’s so closely linked to innovation. That makes us, though, an employer segment, because innovation is a desired trait in an employee, and a consumer segment, right? Think about innovation for a second. Like innovation is the lifeblood of all companies.
We’ve all heard cautionary tales of companies that, innovate or die, and they died. But didn’t we just talk about disability and naturally practiced innovation and creative problem-solving? And doesn’t that suggest that if you hire a person with a disability, you’re hiring a naturally practiced innovator?
Like you’re actually adding innovation as a skill to your team. I know that’s true. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I know for a fact that’s true. Assistive technology is like a lubricant to all this. Assistive technology is literally opening doors, like a push button door. It’s, it… recent advancements in assistive technology are just mind-blowing.
[00:15:00] Zoom meetings are now have AI captioning Teams meetings, so I can just turn that on and if I’m hard of hearing, I can still follow along word for word. PowerPoint has a captions feature, so if I’m presenting in PowerPoint, I can turn on captions and live in a room, and they’ll turn on and go.
Microsoft Office products have accessibility checkers built into them, like a spell check. Run an accessibility check. I can summon an ASL interpreter on demand on a tablet. So if I’m having a conversation with a colleague or a friend who happens to be deaf and they prefer ASL, get it up, hit the button, 15 seconds later there’s somebody, and I speak to the somebody, and they sign to my friend, and my friend signs back, and that person voices.
Within seconds, like that can be summoned. Sighted assistance. There’s human-aided sight guides. There’s a service you can pay for On an app which connects, my, my app and my phone and my earpiece to a rep somewhere, and I’m like, “What am I seeing? Where am I going?”[00:16:00]
And the cheap ones, they just look at what’s in the camera, and they tell you what you’re looking at. How do I… which of these cans is corn, and which of these c- but the more advanced ones do that, and they’re linked to geolocation. They can see right where you are on the map, and say, “Oh, I see you’re in Logan Airport.
I can see you’re in Terminal C. I can see you’re at Gate 26. Where do you, what do you want?” “I want a sandwich.” “All right. I have the map here. I’m going to guide you to the nearest sandwich place.” Remote work that’s not really an assistive tech thing, but we have so much remote work now since COVID that if commuting happens to be an issue because of a disability, it’s, it doesn’t have to be an issue anymore.
Jonathan Hughes: Now, before we get back to the show, I want to share one more benefit from opening an ABLE plan, especially relevant given what we’re talking about today. A feature of the ABLE plan is that you can save up to $20,000 per year, but if you’re earning an income from work, you can save past that up to an extra [00:17:00] $15,650 per year.
And the good news is that provision was just made a permanent feature of the ABLE law. Okay, now back to the show.
Hale Pulsifer: The bottom line when you put all this together, and you consider if I’m a company and I’m considering the universe of potential employees I have to think about disability as a valuable segment, and I just have to tweak a few a few things around how and where I hire and how and people thrive where they work, and I tweak those things, and I’ve unlocked now a massive segment of potential employees.
And employees have money in their pockets, and if everybody’s doing this, that means they’re also customers. In fact, they’re already customers, right? So now if we’ve established that disability is not only an identity group and a cultural group, but also a, an employer segment, employee segment and consumer segment, all of that is moot unless there is a strong supply of workforce-ready disabled people-
And we have a workforce [00:18:00] culture that’s ready to hire them. So I’d like to go into each of those for a second if you don’t mind. Please, yes. The strong supply of workforce-ready disabled people. If you wind back the clock, the Americans with Disabilities Act passing in 1990, right? That’s old, that’s ancient history, but think about what happens.
What happens in 1991, 1992? Public education has to become accessible for people with disabilities. So now, starting around that time, you have a surge in really smart blind kids, deaf kids, like kids in wheelchairs. You have a surge of disabled, smart kids entering kindergarten, pre-K, first grade, second grade- That weren’t there before.
And that’s now your new baseline. So that’s a b- that’s a new cohort in schools, and now you fast-forward, an academic generation through high school and then entering the workforce, through college and then entering the workforce, maybe even getting advanced degrees and entering the workforce.
So you fast-forward that 20-year period or so, [00:19:00] and now you have a steady supply of workforce-ready, smart young people, fully educated, ready to go, with disabilities, right? So that started trickling into existence, around 2020. Sorry, around 2005, ‘6, ‘7, over the next 10 years, right? And growing.
But if we have to think back, massive recession, like 2008, 2009. So we had, the recession had to pass before companies could act. They weren’t ready to act. ERGs started emerging in the 2010s. Disability hiring programs emerged around two, like 2015-ish. And so now we’re getting some momentum. We already have the supply.
The demand is starting to build, and then 2020 happens, and we have combination of social injustice, awareness, and a surge in D&I capabilities and funding. So now the hiring programs p-p-p-p-p-p explode. And we have COVID, which opens the door for more remote work for this highly [00:20:00] qualified, workforce-ready population of young adults who may not have worked before, but now everyone’s remote right?
So now disability employment is exploding. And in my bones, I’ve known this is happening, but I couldn’t prove it to you statistically, right? And then- … the Progressive Policy Institute starts nosing around employment trends, and they do this study, and they weren’t even looking at this, but when they were looking at something else, they found this.
That over a three and a half year period between like early 2020 and the end of 2023 disability accounted for over half of all net job creation in the workforce. Wow. Over half. So we’re one quarter of the population driving over half of net job growth. This is a phenomenon. This has to be a S- a 60 Minutes episode, but it’s not because awareness is still building.
But like now the floodgates have opened and people with disabilities are pouring into the workforce. And [00:21:00] a- so now when you think about us as a consumer segment and an employee segment, like our numbers are just growing and growing and growing and growing. And- the early, like the first wave from 10 years ago, they’ve now received promotions.
So we’re growing. It’s n- like in most cohorts in the workforce, some retire, they’re replaced by new people. Some retire, they’re replaced. So they’re generally growing like everyone else is growing, not disability, because in the workforce we don’t have as many people retiring and leaving. It’s all net new.
Jonathan Hughes: Now, of course, obstacles still persist, and I wanted Hail to break down some of those obstacles that still stand in the way of employment for individuals with disabilities.
Hale Pulsifer: Y- i- if you listen closely to what I’m saying, you’ll be like, “This is the greatest opportunity ever,” and let’s go. But, the reality is there are still a lot of hurdles.
It– this is not this is not something you can just I don’t know, walk into and make magic right away, if you’re a company that says, “All right, I’m on [00:22:00] board,” it’s okay, hang on a second. You need to make sure that everything you do internally for all your employees is accessible, as in works with screen readers, as in ASL interpreter is available at the press of a button, you have– that’s an investment, so you have to do that. And then you have to make sure that’s the same for your customers, too. So not enough things are accessible. That’s the first challenge. The second challenge is that even despite all this opportunity and all the companies that are, like, piling in and seeing the gains from it just as a community, disability is still underemployed.
We just still are because not enough companies have woken up to it yet. Those that have are loving it, and those that have don’t even know it’s happening. I know there are companies out there that are like, “Why are they getting these market share gains and I’m not? What’s going on?”
because they’re not- … looking at disability as potentially the differentiator. Another challenge is that, we could be a little more louder and influential, but nobody knows who we are, so much of disability is invisible, and there are still many people with muscle memory that says, “If I open up about this, [00:23:00] it may limit my opportunities.
People may think I’m less capable. If there’s more risk of disclosing than there is benefit, so I’m not going to disclose.” If you’re a caregiver for a loved one with a disability- … generally under supported is what I’ve seen. There’s such an opportunity there to, from a benefit standpoint and other dimensions to better support caregivers.
And then f- and then the two more. One is there’s this thing called the disability tax. The National Disability Institute did this study and determined that if you have a disability relative to someone who doesn’t, on average, your expenses are about $18,000 more per year than- Yeah
a non-disabled person. Just total averages. And then the last thing is ableism. Despite this massive opportunity, ableism, if you haven’t heard the word- It is what it sounds like. It’s discrimination on the basis of ability or disability, and it’s subtle, it’s pervasive.
Most people don’t even realize they’re engaging in it. But it’s very common for people who have not had [00:24:00] conversations like this one to assume that a person who’s blind is less capable of thriving at the same job than a person who isn’t, they don’t know yet that the person who’s blind actually reads three times faster than the person who isn’t.
Yes, reads and consumes- Wow … three times faster than the person who isn’t, because of- Wow … the tech they use, right? So ableism is a– that, that’s a thing. So those are some of the challenges. The opportunity is still there. I still think it’s worth it, but it’s not totally smooth sailing to, to make change happen.
Jonathan Hughes: It seems of all the things that you mentioned that is driving all of the good news that, that has come up in recent years regarding, disability e-employment, it doesn’t seem like that’s going to go away anytime soon.
Hale Pulsifer: So I absolutely agree. I often refer to what we’re talking about as a perpetual motion machine, or a snowball rolling down a hill and just g- and here’s how that plays out.
If I’m a company that realizes disability. Consumer segment. Who knew?” Let’s say I’m a coffee [00:25:00] shop. I’m going to design my coffee shop to make easy ordering more effortless for customers who happen to be blind, happen to be deaf and see what happens. And so they decide to do that. I can’t do that well, though, unless I hire people who have lived experience being blind and deaf as, either as consultants or as whatever, and that’s part of what they do.
And now I learn to do it well. And now blind community, deaf community recognize, “This is the coffee shop that I’m going to, because they get me. The app’s accessible. I don’t need to be able to speak to place my order.” Like I– and now I’ve got market share gains, right? And that’s economic results that are awesome.
Meanwhile, I’ve added a few jobs to the economy, which means there are more disabled people with money in their pockets who are now consumers, and those consumers buy jeans. And now I’m a blue jeans– I’m a let’s say I’m a blue jeans maker, and I sell blue jeans. And I think I’m noticing a lot more disabled people with money in their pockets looking for jeans.
Do I have the right jeans? Do I sell jeans the right way? Do I market [00:26:00] them the right way? Let me look into this. I’ll hire some people with disabilities to help me get it right.” And now I’ve gotten it right, and now I’m thriving. And that’s more people with disabilities with paychecks who are now going out and going to the movies or buying or…
See? So it’s like a perpetual motion machine in that every hire and every success story is more money in the pockets of a consumer, which causes another company to be like, “What’s going on here? I want to participate.” And then more money in the pockets, and more wins and more… And this thing just goes around and around.
Every time, more companies are You know, I want to say sucked in or sold, but like willingly “This is great. This is a market share opportunity. This is a customer satisfaction opportunity.” And the real smart ones remember, “I’m not just, I’m not just doing this for customers that are blind today.
I’m doing this for customers who love me, who love what I do, and they’re going to lose their vision in 10 years. I’m doing it for them, too,” right? Now, a– I say perpetual motion machine or that goes forever. I feel like at some point, the unemployment rates, like [00:27:00] we do track unemployment for disabled and non-disabled people.
The right now it’s about two to one. You’re twice as likely to be your unemployment rate is twice as high for people with disabilities looking for work than people without. So once that starts to equalize- Yeah … then I think, okay, we’re probably nearing the end of this bubble.
But for right now, like we’re still pumping air into it, and it’s still growing and growing.
Jonathan Hughes: It’s nice to be part in some small way of all this since we are partnered with Fidelity at the ABLE program, and ABLE program is an a recent development to help folks with disabilities to be able to keep more of their money.
It’s really satisfying.
Hale Pulsifer: Yeah. We have a website. It’s fidelity.com/disabilityfinancialplanning, and it’s where we’ve consolidated some of the, services and resources and experiences that are more likely to be of interest to you if you happen to be an investor with a disability.
So that’s a good way to learn more about [00:28:00] what we’re doing and, Attainable is prominently featured there.
Jonathan Hughes: Yeah. We’ll post a link to that in the show. Is there anything else that Fidelity has that, that you’d like to talk about?
Hale Pulsifer: Yeah. You know what?
There’s one. This is this is a favorite, this is a favorite story of mine. So I’ve– a couple times I’ve talked about ASL interpreter available at the press of a button, right? We put this technology into all 200-some odd branches around the country so that a person with American Sign Language, if that’s the language of choice, they can walk into a branch at any time, and we’re ready for them.
because the old way is you send an email to the, you find out who the branch manager is, you send an email to them, you say, “I want to come in,” and they schedule an interpreter, and then you have your conversation. But that’s like a two-week turnaround, if you’re lucky. So available at the press of a button, right?
That’s a– the reason I love that is it’s no more I have to go through all this extra work because I happen to have a disability. That’s gone away. But there’s more kind of beautiful upside to it, which is ASL, American Sign Language, that’s not the only [00:29:00] interpreter available on this thing.
We can summon interpreters for Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, French Creole. There’s 40 languages- So this means that you can walk into a Fidelity branch and have an interaction with a financial planner in the language of your choice, right? Talk about something that opens doors to people who want to be engaging in financial services.
Jonathan Hughes: I- is there anything else before we go that you’d like to say to either companies or individuals?
Hale Pulsifer: Yeah, I c- I do. I have two closing thoughts. One is that everything we’ve been talking about has been very much from a a customer perspective, and a disabled person as an employee, and a disabled person as a consumer, right?
And that can sometimes come across as like commercializing disability, or potentially even exploitative. And I under- I understand that perception. But if we don’t have the conversation, we’re missing a huge opportunity that’s right in front of us. And [00:30:00] by the way, there’s never been a better time to have a disability and be looking for work.
That doesn’t mean it’s easy, but there has never been a better time in history to have a disability and be looking for work. The kind of jobs that are available to you are so different than they were even 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. So that’s one important takeaway. And I think the other I think the other is that for whether you’re a company or whether you’re an individual if you’re not in touch with what disability means in 2026 it’s time to look more closely.
Di- disability is not the community of charity or pity. We are the, we are a proud community of innovation, of independence. The labor market for disability is frothy. There’s strong supply, growing demand. Hiring for disability is hiring innovation. So we are a formidable employee segment and a formidable consumer segment.
And we talked about the perpetual motion machine, and it won’t last forever, [00:31:00] but it is happening right now. Now’s the time. Now’s the time to be getting involved.
Jonathan Hughes: Thank you so much for being here, Hale. I know that I’m going to be thinking about the link between disability and innovation, and how we all benefit from it, for a long time, and I think everyone who heard you today will too. Remember, folks, you can follow the show wherever you’re getting us, and I hope you will.
Until next time, my name is Jonathan Hughes, and this has been the MEFA Podcast.