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Julie Shields-Rutyna: Okay, so welcome everyone. My name is Julie Shields and I am the director of college planning education and training here at MEFA, and I’m so happy that you’re able to join us this morning. For this MEFA Institute webinar, learn about under matching in college admissions and how you can best help your students.

And, uh, this morning, uh, before I introduce our, uh, presenter, just know that Logi, logistics wise, if you have a question, let’s use the q and a section. We, we sort of turn off the chat so we’re not looking for questions in a couple of different places. And, um, I hope you can stay with us for the. The whole time.

But if you can’t know that, we will be sending you the recording tomorrow. So you’ll still get to hear this conversation. And if you wanna share [00:01:00] this with anyone, um, feel free to do that. If you, uh, would like close captioning, hit the live transcript button and you’ll be able to see the words that we’re speaking on the screen.

And so I am here with Dr. Sicily Shaw, who is director of college counseling at their academy. Um, but you’ll learn more about her in the course of her presentation. But, um, Sicily and I have known each other for some time, and I think it’s been about a year ago. Did you complete your dissertation? A year ago.

And, um, so Cecily’s dissertation was on this very topic and she and I have talked a lot about it. And, um, in fact she did a podcast episode for MEFA at some point. Um, but we’ve been, we’ve been planning this conversation for some time, so I think this is gonna be a really, um, informative mourning for all of us.

And I think most of you know MEFA, but just so you know, MEFA has been around for a really long time, [00:02:00] um, with our mission of helping families plan, save and pay for college. And this webinar is part of the MEFA Institute, which is our professional development for counselors. And please visit often. We have lots of great topics and you can receive professional development points, um, for attending these type of.

Webinars and these are some of the other ways that you can connect with MEFA and on our social media, all kinds of social media handles as well. Alright, I am going to get rid of this piece. Um, you can always also call us, email us small questions, large questions. We really want to be in touch with you and helping you all the way through your year.

With that, I am going to stop sharing. And Cecily, let’s, let’s start this conversation. Um, I’m wondering if you, we can, we [00:03:00] can start it where we should start. Can you talk about wh what is under matching, um, and how does that fit into the higher education landscape today?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Julie. Um, excited to be here and to talk about, uh, a subject matter that I’m passionate about.

Um, under matching is. Basically, lemme find an easy definition for it. Uh, but it’s when students who are academically qualified to apply to certain types of colleges, um. Because of their academic performance, actually they don’t apply. Um, and there are a lot of factors to why a student doesn’t it think about the term matching.

So they’re under matching, they’re, they’re matching under what their ability, their academic ability is. And there’s a lot of factors that I found, um, during my research with my dissertation of why students, um, under match, uh. Even in my research, I found that the largest number of students, uh, largest percentage of students that undermatch [00:04:00] are low income students, um, and first gen students.

So first gen National First Gen Day is Saturday. Um, so it’s kind of like a timely topic, which I’m excited about, but that’s basically what undermatching is. It’s when students who could apply somewhere they’re academically qualified to apply, but for some reason, um, you know, there’s several factors why they actually don’t.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Thank you. And what, what drew you to this topic? Uh, it’s an important topic. What drew you to spend a lot, a lot of hours doing research and working on this topic?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, like I said, it’s more, it was almost like a passion project for me. Um, when I was in high school, I was almost, I’ll say almost a victim of under matching, um.

You know, I was first gen, my parents were very supportive of me going to college, but didn’t really have the resources, um, or the experience to support me through the process. So I [00:05:00] relied heavily on, you know, the adults in my school. Um, I had, I mean, my story’s a little bit sad in, in the beginning. It, it ended up obviously very positive, but, um.

I had certain colleges in mind and I think, you know, school counselors can attest to this, where students are like, yeah, I wanna go to x, y, Z college. And you’re like, okay, this is gonna be tough. Um, but I did feel that, you know, I had done my research. I felt like I was a good match for the schools I was looking at.

Um, and unfortunately I was told that I would not get in. Um, you know, this is obviously like. 30 years ago. Uh, but, um, I was told that I would not get into the school that I really wanted to go to. And unfortunately, I believed my counselor. Um, my goal in high school was just to go to college. I was like, you know what?

I had the mentality, I can be successful wherever I go to college. Um, but I really had my eyes set. I went to Stonehill, um, for my undergrad [00:06:00] and. If I had not had, um, another adult intervene, I probably, I’m not sure what decision I would have made. Um, but I would not have gone to the school that I wanted to go to.

And I, I thought that I was qualified for, um, and it, it’s funny how things align, uh, but the, it was the director of the program who reached out to me maybe like halfway through the process and was surprised that I hadn’t submitted an application to Stonehill. Um, and. You know, encouraged me to apply. Um, and I ended up applying, you know, he ended up taking my application.

He is like, I’m gonna take your application or I’m gonna work with you. I don’t know why it happened, but I’m glad that it happened and that he intervened. Um, so it’s funny when, when that happened to me, and then obviously I got into Stonehill, but I didn’t just get into Stonehill. I ended up getting a full four year scholarship to Stonehill.

Um, and. At that moment in my young, whatever, 17-year-old mind, I’m [00:07:00] like, okay, something’s off here. Right? I mean, I, I understand, you know, there were certain areas of my application that, um, maybe weren’t like, you know, testing. I felt like I was a strong student. I was taking really, um, high level courses.

Didn’t do great on my SAT. Um, but I was involved, I was engaged, uh, you know, I had responsibility. Um. And I just couldn’t quite understand. So when I started at Stonehill, I kind of took on this like, I’m gonna shepherd, you know, new students that come on campus and you know, and then throughout my career it’s been something that I’ve been really passionate about.

It’s making sure that one students are. You know, reaching, right? I mean, having a healthy list, but also reaching. Um, and I think that’s healthy for students to have a nice balance list of like the, the reaches and the, the match schools and the likes. Um, yeah. And then finally I ended up going for my, you know, doctorate and it just [00:08:00] seemed natural that this would be the topic.

So that’s kind of how I got there.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yes. So can you, you said one thing about your, um, your research and the findings that sometimes low lower income students, uh, fall into this more than middle and higher income students. Can you say a few other things that you learned in your research? And also, you know, were there any surprises, um, to you in your research?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, I mean, so. Anyone who has a doctorate program, uh, you kind of go in with your own thoughts and then you have a committee and you have your dissertation chair and they. Bring you back to reality. They’re like, listen, you gotta get through the program. So let’s, let’s center our research on something that is attainable in the timeframe.

Um, I really wanted to work directly with students, um, and, you know, interview students and to find out, uh, what you know, their process was, um, and uh, just really get a sense of how their [00:09:00] process went. And that was my initial goal. But as I sat. With my chair and my advisor, um, and did more research. Uh, I shifted to actually focus on the school counselor, um, and the role of the school counselor in under matching, um.

And, you know, I’m just so grateful for colleagues across the country that were a part of my research. Um, but I’d say the surprising pieces were, ’cause again, I, you have to be really careful, um, when you are in a doctoral program that you’re not biased, right. And that you’re not bringing your own personal experiences.

It maybe even hurts, um, into your research, but that you’re. Really looking at it broadly and hearing all voices. Uh, and you know, like I said, the counselors that I was able to interview during, um, my research were phenomenal. And I think the, the biggest surprise to me was, and I knew it, but like when you really sit down and take time to [00:10:00] hear what counselors are going through, um, just the amount.

Of responsibility that they face. Um, so a lot of, there’s a whole section of my research talks about how do we engage sup uh, superintendents and principals to understand the role of the school counselor, right? That they should not be doing lunch duty and, um, morning duty or bus duty. Like there’s so many other really important things that a school counselor needs to do.

Um, that was one surprise in the research. Um. The other, I wouldn’t say they were surprises, but more, um, just confirmations, you know, so the majority of students that are, uh, undermatched are, like I said, first gen or low, um, income, low SES students. And in my mind, again, my 17-year-old experience, I’m like, oh, my school counselor.

Right. But through the research, um. It really, it, it really didn’t have a lot to do with the school counselor. [00:11:00] Um, why students choose colleges sometimes it’s imposter syndrome, right? So students don’t believe in themselves to even submit an application because if they don’t submit an application, they don’t get a decision, which means they don’t have to worry about whether or not they were admitted or not admitted.

Um, but family factors was the biggest piece. So the role of the family, um, again, and this is, this is much more broader. I’m not gonna get into the weeds of the research, but you know, there a lot of students who are first gen and low income have a, have an experience where, especially if they go away to college.

They’re leaving their family, and especially if they’re helping their family financially. Maybe they have a job, maybe they watch siblings, um, to go away to college. Um, especially depending on where students at in the country. Like if they’re in New England, there’s so many different options. But if they’re in, you know, areas where maybe there are not a lot of, um, colleges and universities to choose [00:12:00] from, they only have a, a small amount of schools to select right?

Or to apply to. Um, but that was the biggest factor, was the, the pressure of leaving their family, right. And here they’re on, you know, some glamorous, you know, college campus and, you know, living the life and their families back home. Um, maybe struggling, you know, I don’t wanna generalize, but, um, in my research that is what I found that it was, it had a lot to do with just not wanting to leave family or families, maybe not fully understanding, um, because.

Again, first gen. If the parents haven’t gone to college, maybe there’s not a full understanding of why do you need to go away to college? Why can’t you just go to the local community college? Which there’s nothing wrong with community college at all, but the topic we’re talking about is under matching.

So yeah, those were, I think, the biggest surprises to me. So

Julie Shields-Rutyna: given that, um, do you have thoughts about what [00:13:00] counselors, colleges, parents, um, can, can do to sort of support this and, and help some of these students make Just maybe, maybe they still make the same decisions, but, but. Help, help them really think it through.

So maybe students end up in a, a better match sometimes.

Cicily Shaw: Yeah. Um, a couple of things in the research, in my research that I found, um, one is really, it’s communication is number one, right? So how do we partner, um, with families and, and create opportunities for education so that they have an understanding of.

The differences between one college versus another. And it’s not to say like one college is better than the other, but what, as far as fit, right? So like what college is the best fit for their child? Um, and understanding, you know. There’s a lot of talk right now about the cost of college. Um, and I think the conversations I have [00:14:00] in the counseling community versus folks who don’t do this work, you know, they’re like, oh my gosh, who’s paying $90,000?

Nope, really hardly. Anybody’s paying $90,000 for college and the sticker price isn’t sane. But I think a lot of families don’t understand the details and you know, everything behind the nuances right behind. Financial aid and, you know, um, scholarships and merit and all of that, that helps to bring down that sticker price to the net price.

Um, so education, I think is number one. How do we engage with families? Um, I do understand the challenge that, especially our public school, my public school peer counselors, um, experience, I do have the luxury of working at a private school. I am a public school product, product of the public school education, uh, and loved my high school experience.

But counselors are overworked, right? So I think education to leadership, those who can actually make the change, um, superintendents and principals, um, so that they can [00:15:00] understand the, the role that the school counselor plays. Yes, there’s that social emotional piece, but also the career and college planning, um, and being able to carve out and create space for counselors to do that work.

It can’t just be. You know, that’s 15% of your job. Um, and. Kids just need to figure it out on their own. Um, another part that really kind of was highlighted in my research was working with community based organizations. So again, partnering with folks who, um, kind of are also boots on the ground, but in a different kind of way where students are involved or engaged in activities outside of school.

They’ve created relationships. A lot of these CBOs have created relationships with, um, the families. In a different way that sometimes as a school counselor, you don’t always have the luxury of creating those relationships. So if we partner together to kind of make sure that parents are [00:16:00] educated, students are educated and encouraged, leadership is educated, so they know I need more time in order to be able to, you know, execute this programming successfully so that our students are successful in the college process.

Um, yeah, those are, those are some of the. Some of the things I would recommend.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yes. I’m sure you have a lot of, uh, agreement among the, um, the group here as well. Okay. Let me, I’m gonna ask one more question then I do want you all to put in some of your questions as well. But, so, you know, at MEFA we have lots of financial conversations with families and um, yeah.

You know, one thing you said I think is really important that, um, for high achieving students, um, lots of times they don’t know that even at some of, at some of these very competitive, sometimes the most competitive colleges, um, students who are low income, high [00:17:00] achieving. Can get amazing financial aid. So I mean, that’s fabulous.

Um, that being said, though, there are, um, students who are high achieving who may apply to some reach schools and then some schools, um, that are, um, a little more, um, um, what’s, what’s the word I wanna use? Uh. That, that they assure they’re going to get into. Um, and sometimes the way financial aid works, uh, students could get a much better financial aid package at a college that was less of a reach and more, you know, where they, uh, they work sort of in the top of the class.

Of, of this school that’s a little less competitive. And given that money is such an important topic with all of this, um, that can be hard for right to, for families to take that. So what, what’s, what are some thoughts you have about [00:18:00] that piece?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, and that’s a, that’s always a hard piece. Um, and I think, you know, counselors on the call can probably.

Uh, you know, agree with this. Um, when we help, at least at there, we help students craft a list. We don’t do the list for them. That’s not our job. Um, we really want students to engage with the process. Um, but we try to think about when we don’t think of just like a balance list as, okay, yeah, you can get into that school, but like, can you afford to go to that school as well, right?

So it’s great that you’ve gotten in, but if you can’t afford it. Then that’s a whole nother like, hurdle to get over. Um, and it is, it’s, it’s hard to watch students get into schools that they have been wanting to get into forever, and then the financial aid doesn’t work out. Um, so I, I do think in those cases it’s important to, um, that students are creating a list of schools that are realistic both academically and financially.

Um, and then maybe they can challenge or push [00:19:00] themselves by applying to honors programs, right? So they, in their mind, they may say, oh, you know, this school is a little bit, you know, it’s not as competitive as I want it to be, but they can create opportunities on campus, um, where they can get that experience.

Um, so that’s, I feel like that’s kind of. Part of the responsibility of a school counselor is to help students and families really dig what I always said in my term to all my students. Dig deep, dig deep into the research, um, and really look at, um, the opportunities. I can give you an example. I had a student at a former school.

Who had, you know, their mind set on a very specific college, they got in and the financial aid was outrageous, you know, and the parents were calling me like, what should we do? And I’m like, this is your child. You know, I can’t tell you how to, how to parent and in the decision that you need to make for your family.

But I did say professionally. Would not recommend taking [00:20:00] $60,000 a year, um, in loans. Um, and, and sometimes students don’t quite understand or they don’t understand the reality of what paying for college means. Um, the student was like, I’ll just get a job. I’m like, no, no. $60,000 you a year, times four. Um, and, you know, it was, it was a challenging conversation, uh, to have with the student.

They got into an amazing state. College, um, state program, state university, uh, in their honors program. And they were just totally against even visiting the campus. And, you know, through some counsel and pushing and nudging and working with the advisor and working with the family, I was like, you owe it to yourself to visit the campus.

You owe it to yourself to go to the open house. Um, now if you go to the open house and you realize, yeah, maybe this isn’t for me. At least you went to the open house. Um, so the student went to the open house, came back a little bit of a change of heart. Okay, maybe it’s not so bad. Um, [00:21:00] reluctantly, you know, enrolled in that school because of finances, um, and came back second semester.

To visit me at the high school. And I mean, it was to the point where the student didn’t talk to me for two months at the end of their senior year because they were so mad that I was siding with their parents on making that decision. Um, but you know, the student came back in, I think maybe it was like January after the first semester and thanked me.

I was like. It’s, it’s the perfect fit. I’m being challenged, um, in an, I mean, when I say an amazing honors program, so I, I don’t want people to think when I’m saying under matching that that means all kids need to go to Ivy League schools. That’s not. Where I’m coming from, but that students should be able to push themselves academically and, and reach, right, reach for the stars, see what happens.

Um, especially if they’re academically qualified. That’s, that’s the key. Um, and you know, the student [00:22:00] was academically qualified for the first college, but it didn’t work out financially. And thought maybe they were overqualified for the school that they ended up going to, but then realized once they got on campus and really saw all of the resources and opportunities and like guest lectures, special housing, you know, just.

It was really great and I was, you don’t always get those students coming back saying thank you. Um, but I was really grateful that that student did come back, um, and shared their experience. So I think it’s just, again, it’s about the research and helping students. Dig deep, uh, and not just look at the surface level or look at names, right?

Oh, I really wanna go to this school because it’s so popular. It is. It gonna give you what you’re looking for. Who are the professors? Who are the professors that you’re gonna be sitting in their class? And yeah. So I don’t know if that answered the question, but

Julie Shields-Rutyna: that story brought tears to my eyes because I know as counselors, you [00:23:00] don’t always.

Find out. And uh, yeah, that’s why you do the work you do when, when those situations can work out like that. Oh. Um, we do have a, it’s more of a comment, but maybe you can just react to it too. And I have, I have one other question too. Um, I. Um, so Jennifer tell, ask says, I think that, that for her, this is the main issue with Undermatching.

The students can have a robust list, but when the financial aid packages come out, it becomes more of a reality that they, what they can and cannot afford, pushing them to apply to local scholarships. And educating them about their bill are important. Um, so, so she sees that a lot with her low income students.

Cicily Shaw: No, it’s so true. Um, I’m grateful for a handful of schools that are like jumping on this train of like, if your family makes under a certain amount that they’ll offer full tuition. Um, so I feel like maybe that will help to shift a little [00:24:00] bit, um, in the coming years. But yeah, that’s why I say from the, from the start.

When we’re working with students, we have to help them create lists that aren’t just focused on academics, but really helping them, like knowing, you know, we have to have an understanding of our own craft and knowing, okay, who are the colleges that we know meet a hundred percent demonstrated need? Who are the schools that don’t?

And then just being honest upfront with families from the start, like. It’s a great school, you know, but this is our, this is our reality and our history understanding. When we work with families who apply to X, y, z college, they don’t meet a hundred percent demonstrated need. So what are your options? What do you wanna do?

It is like pulling teeth, trying to get students to apply to scholarships. Um. Until it’s almost like too late, right? So like when you’re telling them early, Hey, here’s a scholarship you should apply. Here’s a scholarship you should apply. They’re like, oh yeah, okay, I’ll get around to it. And then it’s like March and [00:25:00] April, you know?

And then they get their financial aid awards and they’re like, okay, so I need to apply these scholarships. And you’re like. Uh, I’ve been telling you this since the fall, but that is, I think that is, that’s, that actually came up in my research too, that, you know, it was, it was family, it was finances, um, a little bit, you know, good, a bit, good amount of, bit of, uh, imposter syndrome.

Um, so not even submitting an app because they weren’t sure about themselves. But yeah, financial aid plays a big role and I don’t know, I don’t have an answer.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. But what you just described, uh. Reinforces for me the value in this college counseling that all of you experienced counselors are able to provide.

And what you said from the beginning, having the time to be able to do that with more, more students. Um, so, and it also reinforces for me the work that MEFA is doing because Absolutely we see, you know, each year a new, a new group of seniors [00:26:00] who, it continues to surprise me. I’ve been doing this work for 30 years.

How little. The general public knows about financial aid and these nuances and what’s available and what isn’t. And um, so, um, yep. Pushes me to think creatively about all of the ways that we can get that information out there to people younger as well. So, I, I have one other question. It’s just funny, it occurred to me, but, um, others put in your questions as well.

Um, this has, this has been great. Um, is there such a thing as over matching? Is that something we. Should even, it’s even worth it to talk about.

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I think there is, um, I, I did a little bit of research, um, but um, some studies and I can definitely share resources after, um, have shown that about 25% of students actually overmatch.

Um, so, uh, and you know, again, I don’t, it’s kind of a challenging one because like. I don’t think colleges are admitting students that are [00:27:00] not qualified. Right. That’s, I I wanna just put that out there ’cause I don’t want people to walk away saying, yeah. And she was saying like, colleges are admitting students who can’t do the work.

Um, but I think students have, how do I say this nicely in, in a positive way, but like a little bit of an inflated, um, view of, you know, where they’re at. Uh, because if they’re superstars in our school communities and then they’re in a larger organ like university where. A lot of superstars are coming. Um, sometimes that can be really challenging for a student who was an A student all through high school.

So yeah, they are qualified absolutely, but they start to get into a space where now they’re in the classroom with students who have done. Maybe, again, I’m trying to be very sensitive, but have done more than they have. Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes we’ll hear that from our top students where they got into their dream school, right?

And they come back and you’re like, [00:28:00] oh my gosh, how is it, you know, you’re, you’re there. And they’re like, whew. It’s tough. Yeah, it’s tough, you know, so you have that like analogy where there’s that phrase like be a big fish in a small pond instead of a little fish in a big pond. But I don’t know, I feel like you just gotta find the right pond for you regardless of what size fish you are.

Um, you have to find the right pond. And it could be a combination, like you definitely wanna be at an institution that will push and challenge you, but not to the point where you’re like. What did I learn in high school? You know? Um, and when you’re competing against students from all over the world

Julie Shields-Rutyna: mm-hmm.

In different

Cicily Shaw: educational systems, it’s, it’s just different, right? It’s different what a student in another country would learn and the depth of what they would learn versus a high, a certain high school in whatever part of the United States. It, it just depends. So yeah, [00:29:00] there, there’s definitely is. Um.

There definitely is. Uh, I wouldn’t say it’s a, it’s a, it’s a issue. Mm-hmm. But it does happen. It does happen that there are students who, they’re just so excited that they’ve gotten into the school and then they get there and they’re like, this is tough.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yes.

Cicily Shaw: This

Julie Shields-Rutyna: is tough. I really haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about the counseling at that point where really letting the student know that that.

Uh, they might have to change up the way they’ve always done things, um, because things might have come easily in high school. Um, and if a choice like that is made Yeah, they, they, yeah. And then considering that when they’re deciding among different colleges. Yeah. Interesting.

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, and I can give an example.

I won’t give a year ’cause I don’t wanna give it away, but, um. I did work with a student, um, in the past that, uh, had gotten into some pretty amazing schools. They got into almost all of the [00:30:00] schools, um, on their list, except for maybe two. Um, and they were choosing between a, a pretty selective institution and an Ivy League institution.

Um, and there was a lot of council behind that just ’cause the student was leaning toward the. The highly selective institution and not the Ivy. Um, and you know, I think we’re kind of programmed as a society to be like, oh my gosh, you would, why wouldn’t you go to the Ivy? Right? Uh, and not that the student couldn’t do the work at both places.

I do think it would be a very different educational experience for them. Um, and. You know, through many, many conversations, I’m like, you know, what are your parents saying? My parents think I’m insane if I don’t go, you know, to the Ivy. And I’m like, okay, but what do you think? You know it at this time, at this moment, it was about fit.

You know, and this was a, the school that this student had gotten into was a school that they had been talking [00:31:00] about for like three years. And so we sat down and we did the pros and cons and like, let’s really look, I mean, one is a little bit more of an intimate program. You’re going to, you are gonna know the director of that program mm-hmm.

Versus a pretty large institution where, um, it’s. It’s competitive. Right? And you know, are your people there, right? And mm-hmm. For some students going to that particular ivy, their people would be there. But this was not this student. Uh, and you know, so it was funny, um, you know, May 1st comes around and the student hadn’t told me, so I’m like, I don’t know what they decided, you know?

And then they showed up to school wearing the t-shirt. Of the school that they’ve always wanted to go to. Right? It again, it’s, it’s about just communication, conversation, really helping students figure out [00:32:00] fit and match, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, you got into an Ivy. Amazing, but yep. What’s the right fit? Yeah.

And I know to some people like, that’s insane. You know, especially as a school counselor, why wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you want that on your, your list of schools that you’re sending kids to? I mean, yeah. But at the end of the day, I want the student to be successful and be happy there for four years. Right.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: I’m I impressed and not Yeah. That the student did what the student, what was in his or her heart. I mean Yeah. That’s a, that’s a lot of pressure.

Cicily Shaw: It’s huge. It’s, it was, it was big, but, um. Yeah, I knew, but you can’t tell a student,

Julie Shields-Rutyna: right?

Cicily Shaw: I’m like, you, this is what you’ve been wanting all this time. And now this gem comes, you know, out of the, out of the sky.

Like, wow, this is amazing that you got in to this other school. But their heart was, [00:33:00] yeah. Yeah. So at that I kind of attribute that a little bit to, not, that they wouldn’t have done well there, I just, it it would’ve been very, very, and they knew it would’ve been very challenging.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Right,

Cicily Shaw: right.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. Well, in these last number of years, I mean, I know as counselors you’re very aware of the, um, the pandemic’s, uh, you know, let’s come out of the pandemic as far as changes for students and difficulties.

Um. Has that, has that played into some of your, your students more recently? And it may be as far as this as we talk about, um, students doing their own select out. Um, ha have you seen that?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I think, um, it’s, I’m kind of in a different. Place because of the school that I work at. So we still have a very high, a hundred percent college going rate.

Um, but I did a little research mm-hmm. [00:34:00] Before the call I said, lemme just see if I can find some information. But, um, yeah, the pandemic really, we all know the pandemic had a huge effect on, um, students going to college. Um, so I do think that it, it. Affected it. Um, one number I had was that, uh, total undergraduate enrollment declined from, uh, declined 6.6% from the fall of 2019 to 2021, um, which represents just over about a million students.

And I know I’ve done some research before, like on the common app, they give some great details about like the number of students who’ve applied to the common app and we, there was a shifting, uh, during the pandemic. I do think though, that students are. At least the community that I work with. Um, and I’d love to see if folks on the call wanna just put in comments and see if they’re, if they’ve seen a shift.

Um, but I can say like in the private school world, which is very different than, [00:35:00] you know, my public school, um, colleagues, uh, yeah, they, kids are still going, but I think they. What I did see during COVID though, um, and this is just more professional, personal experience, was that students were being a little bit more mindful of where they went.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Okay.

Cicily Shaw: So I saw a lot of students, um, at my previous school, um, ’cause that’s when the pandemic hit. I was at, um, another school. Really choosing more local school schools that they could get, get home to very quickly because they saw, um, what happened. And it was part of our talking point too, when we were counseling families of like, how did colleges respond when COVID hit?

Um. Granted, nobody knew how to handle anything, and I don’t wanna blame colleges, but there were, there were some, you know, headlines that were just like, campus is closed. And so it just felt like if there [00:36:00] were a crisis, if there were an emergency, um, how could you get home? How could you, so those were conversations, and I’ve always had those conversations, but we never had a.

Pandemic. Right. So now that the students had lived through it or were living through it at the time. Um, that was definitely a factor. So I did, I saw personally as a counselor, I did see students not going as far away, uh, maybe a car ride versus a plane ride. Um, somewhere where they could get home very quickly if they needed to, um, or if they had family in the area, right?

That they had a place to go to if something happened and they needed to get off campus quickly. Um, I do feel like that shifting. Away now kids are like everywhere. Yeah. The south is big. Oh my gosh. The south is big. Um, and I, I wonder if that’s also a product of the pandemic is that kids want that fun and big and [00:37:00] raw and Right.

They just want that, what maybe they in their mind have envisioned to be the college experience. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, and I, I, I hope in the next few years we’ll see a shift back to the liberal arts. Um, but. Yeah, I do think that not so much under matching as far as what we’re talking about today, but I have seen shifting, um, from the pandemic.

Yeah.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Well, I’ll just ask, um, are there any other questions from questions? Attendees, put them in the q and a and we’ll get the last couple of minutes of Cecily’s expertise here. Um, in the meantime, while I’m giving people a chance to write in if they would like, would you like to share anything about where people could.

Could read about your research or any, anything people could, um, do going forward. Yeah, yeah, sure.

Cicily Shaw: So I’m on ProQuest. Um, uh, if you ever just Google my name. Um, my dissertation topic was under [00:38:00] matching. Um. And the role of the school counselor. Um, so I went to Northeastern University for my, uh, doctoral program.

Um, but yeah, it’s right there. You can read it all. A hundred plus pages of glorious research. Uh, you know, it’s funny, um. There are in that, in my dissertation, I do also cite, and I don’t know if there’s a follow up or whatever, I don’t have the, the websites, but there are a lot of colleges that have some really great, um, first gen resources.

Um, so if as a counselor, if you are working with a population that you feel is like, yeah, I think I’m working with this population of student, and you just wanna get a sense of what colleges are doing, um. I would encourage you to, to get on some of those college websites and maybe I, I don’t know if there’s a, a space to put that, but I can definitely share, um, some of those links.

Um, but they’re in, they’re in my dissertation as well, [00:39:00] so, um, yeah, I, I think it’s really great work. The reason I did it, um, is there’s not a lot of research. Yeah. It was, it was brutal to find sources. I’m like, a lot of people. Are talking about first gen, right? And getting kids through first gen, but there’s not a lot of research around under matching.

So the, the high school side of it, like getting kids from high school to college, I was, I was surprised a little bit. So my chair was excited because she’s like, this is great. This is what you do research for when there’s not a lot of stuff out there. You start to build that. Oh, that’s terrific. That

Julie Shields-Rutyna: pool of information, if you wanna send me those links, Cicely, I will then forward it out when I send the follow up to this group.

So that’s great. Yeah. And let’s see, we have, um, a couple of more comments. Um. I find that under matching is often due to students’ connections, to home responsibilities, being scared to leave, [00:40:00] all the things you’re saying, Sicily and familiar, and also the lack of confidence. Uh, they feel they will fit in, find friends in a more competitive school or that they don’t belong.

How to help them through this is a college as a college counselor is challenging. And that’s exactly what, what you said. It really is. Yeah.

Cicily Shaw: Yeah. Some things I would recommend, um. Is like it depending on your school community, but if you can get alumni to come back, I feel like students hear each other, right?

So as adults we can be like, you’re amazing. You belong. Right? Um, but when they start to see their peers. Um, thriving in those environments and they can come back and share. I do think colleges do an amazing job, um, once a student gets on campus, like those resources to make sure that students are connected, um, and they know where to access resources.

But I, I do wonder if as school counselors there’s anything that we can do to really shift the mindset that students have about themselves. [00:41:00] Um, and I think, you know. Inviting alumni back, um, to share their experiences, um, and then start building a network that way is, is something that could really, really, I think, shift students thinking of themselves.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, two more questions. Do you feel like colleges provide enough aid to first generation students? That’s a hard one.

Cicily Shaw: That’s a, that’s a hard question to answer.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah,

Cicily Shaw: I do think. There are definitely colleges that mm-hmm. Provide aid. Right. I won’t, I wouldn’t wanna say yes blanket, like a blanket statement.

Yes. All colleges do. But I do think that there is, especially given, I dunno if I wanna say this, um, but given just some of the recent changes in education and some of the restrictions, um, and how colleges can, you know, read applications, I do think first gen students, um, are. [00:42:00] A population that is, is, I mean, dare I say, safe for colleges to really, um, reach out to, uh, and provide support.

So I have seen, like I said, a lot of colleges pop, like campus. Uh, lemme get my words together, but, um. Campus offices, uh, that focus and center around first gen. And like I said, November 8th is the National First Gen Day, um, where colleges across the country do celebrate, uh, first gen students. Um, my alma mater does a great job, um, and really celebrating students.

So yeah, I do think that there. Um, there is funding and there’s specialized funding on some college campuses, but that’s our, that’s our, you know, part of our job to help students find those resources. And like I said, I will definitely send you some links, um, just to see what, um, you know, [00:43:00] what, what colleges are doing to support those first gen students.

One thing I, I do, yeah. Can I give one more point? Okay. Yeah. One thing I do tell my students that are nervous about financial aid, um, and it’s worked for a few, is, um, and it’s worked for me when I was in college. Again, I don’t know how I, I, I attributed to my parents and the way they raised me, but for them not to have gone to college.

I don’t know. I don’t know what it was. But anyways, um. I did get a full scholarship, like I said, but I lived on campus and that was not covered. Right. So, and that’s a pretty significant amount of money for a first gen low SES student. Um, one thing I did was every semester, and they, they knew me by name, the bursar’s office and the, the financial aid office.

I would always go and say, Hey, are there any new scholarships that you know? You know, oftentimes, believe it or not, alumni, when they donate money. They do it like midyear, right? So they might come into some money, they’re like, oh, I wanna donate [00:44:00] $10,000 to my alma mater for scholarships. And then it’s up to the school to give that money out, right?

But they don’t always publicize it. So I always tell students, I’m like, every semester. Every semester, make yourself known, right? Befriend the registrar, the bursar, the financial aid office, and go and ask. Just ask, you’d be surprised, um, that I was on a first name basis with our bursar and she would email me and be like, um, well call me.

’cause email didn’t really quite exist when I was in college. But she would reach out to me and she’s like, Hey, you know, we just got this, um, $2,500 scholarship application if you wanna come in and fill it out. And that’s how I was able to fund, um, my housing. Um, so. If you’re feeling like, okay, you have this first gen kid, again, it’s about just educating the student and equipping them with the resources.

So once they’re on that college campus, they know who to go to, who to [00:45:00] ask. Um, I’m, you know, at Stonehill, again, love Stonehill. I’m not trying to do advertising for them, but I’m on the alumni council and the alumni council for my alma mater does. Like we give away like something like $250,000 in scholarship every year to current students.

So I think sometimes students go into college thinking, oh, I didn’t get any scholarships to, to get in, and then they stop and we have to educate our students that no, no, no. The scholarship search doesn’t stop. Once you are a freshman, you can continue to do that research and ask the college, you know, whoever in the university that you would need to ask.

Um, what other types of financial aid resources are there? So I would encourage that.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Well, having spent some of my career in a financial aid office, working in a financial aid office, and ha knowing lots of my financial aid colleagues, I highly second that repre uh, that recommendation. I mean, I think something about the financial aid office feels scary, you know?

Yeah. [00:46:00] Well, don’t wanna be asking and feeling like there’s never enough. And so I think that’s a more common feeling about the financial aid office and yet. No, it’s, you know, it’s, it is a lot of good people wanting to do the best they can for students. And so, yes, I think sort of shifting that mindset about getting, getting to know people on campus, I, I, I agree.

And then I’m so glad you’re gonna send those links. I will get those to all of you because this last question is just, are there any. Resources you would recommend that counselors share with caregivers about this topic or to inform caregiver decision making?

Cicily Shaw: Yeah. Um, I would say, I’m just looking at my notes here.

Um, yeah, I would say if I could get the list to you, ’cause I don’t have it in front of me. Yeah. But if you could create, I, I would say in your counseling office, if you could start to create like a. [00:47:00] A resource, whether it’s a digital resource with just website links, um, for families to access. Um, yeah, some of the CBOs have some really great resources.

Let me, let me get that list. You, I don’t have it to list out.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: That’s great, Cicely. And you know, it’s making me think that, um, MEFA could spend some time too, and maybe, uh, because we sort of, uh, spend a lot of time, uh, trying to educate parents, uh, early on, um, seeing what we could pull together as a, as some type of a resource on our website or something as well.

So maybe, yeah, maybe Cicely we can work together on that.

Cicily Shaw: No, absolutely. It’s funny, I was driving into work the other day and I was like, oh, I’d love to create a campaign like Adopt a, adopt a School or something. Um, you know, sometimes when we do programming here at Thayer that we feel would be beneficial to the community, we’ll invite, um, the local public [00:48:00] schools.

So I know in the fall of last year, we didn’t do it this year, but last year we had like college panels coming on campus. So we sent those invites out to the local schools. But I think just. You know, I really feel strongly about, you know, we’re all in this together. We’re all here to serve students. If we can communicate and partner even more so, like, it’s not this, like I’m hoarding all of my information.

Like it’s, it’s public information. So if one school has that, like, reach out. I wouldn’t, if you wanna reach out to me, reach out to me. Um, but you know, really partnering and saying, you know, yeah, in our office we do a really good job with this, but we feel like we’re, we need a little bit more support and help in this area.

Do you have resources that you’re willing to share? Um, and I think we would just be doing a greater service. We’re already doing a great service to our students, but a greater service to our students. If, you know, those who have access and resource can support maybe some of the communities that, that don’t.[00:49:00]

That’s great.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And one person did ask, you know, would it, does it make sense for a student right away to reach out to a financial aid office? You know, once they get their financial aid offer to say, let me know of any scholarships. And I was thinking that at the accepted student day programs and, um, those type of things, um, that’s a great place to be in person.

Introduce yourself. Absolutely. To financial aid officers. Right.

Cicily Shaw: One other secret.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah.

Cicily Shaw: Which won’t be a secret anymore, um, that I do tell families is okay if you can make it work. Right. So they know they can make it work, but it’s a little tight. Um, but yeah, we can do it, you know, we’ll, we’ll figure this out, um, is at the end of the summer.

To go back to financial aid, um, especially if they haven’t, if all their need hasn’t been met. Right. Because I’m like, what happens to the students who got financial aid and they end up not coming to that school? Where does that money go? [00:50:00] Right? So it doesn’t hurt to ask, because if they say, no, we don’t have anything, you’re right where you were before.

But if they say, you know what, we can, we can give you a little bit more now that. We know who’s actually coming in the fall, and I’ve had some students have success there, but you don’t really think about that. You think like, okay, I got my financial aid award, just gotta make it work. Now in August, go back to that financial aid office and just say, you know, I’m so appreciative of what I’ve been given.

Is there any way, you know, is it possible to look at my financial aid award again to see if there’s any additional funding anywhere? And you might be surprised, I had one student. She ended up getting like $10,000 more just by going in August.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Amazing.

Cicily Shaw: Yeah.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: So, well this has been a great discussion, um, and.

Thank you Sicily so much. Yeah, thank you.

Cicily Shaw: And I’m so glad it finally happened. I

Julie Shields-Rutyna: know, I know. And thank you to all of you who’ve participated as [00:51:00] well. Um, I will send the recording and I’ll send those links from Sicily and it sounds like this is a conversation that needs to continue and Bill, we can build upon it.

So, um, we will, we will make sure we do that. All right, and I hope everyone has a wonderful day. Thanks.