Please note that this transcript was auto-generated. We apologize for any minor errors in spelling or grammar.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: [00:00:00] All right, so welcome again. My name’s Julie Shields and I’m the director of college planning, education and training at MEFA. And I’m so excited to introduce our presenter this morning. Norma Ray Ali and Norma is the executive director and co-founder at NextGen Talent. And MEFA is just super thrilled to be working with Norma and with NextGen talent, um, because, uh, there’s, there’s so much rich content that we think will be so useful for counselors and for schools when you’re working with your students.

So let me just read, um, Norma’s background so you understand, um, what we have here in this expert. So, um. Norma has dedicated her career to the development of new educational models and career advancement solutions to close the opportunity gap for low [00:01:00] income students with a focus on Latinx black and immigrant students.

Prior to next gen talent, she worked for Jobs for the Future where she co-developed its best bets services, providing professional training and tools to help students find career pathways, meeting their interests and filling regional employer needs. Earlier in her career, Norma worked for the Hispanic Office of Planning and Evaluation Hope in Jamaica Plain as hope’s Director of tutorial Services.

She designed curricula, taught and managed tutorial services for low income Latinx students attending the Boston Public Schools. She’s a proud indigenous, I hope I say this right, Guarani Latina from Jamaica Plain. As well as community activist on racial justice issues, affordable housing, and the rights of indigenous peoples and immigrants.

Norma has a master’s degree in public policy from Harvard Kennedy School and a BA in [00:02:00] government from Harvard University. So welcome, Norma, and um, thank you. I’m excited about this topic today that you’re gonna take us through. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna turn it right over to you.

Norma Rey Alicea: Thank you so much, Julian.

Thank you all for being here so early in the morning. I’m going to apologize in advance if you see some, some shadow figure moving behind me. A very, very large one that’s my a hundred pound pit bull, Julian. So he likes to join here and there during meetings. Hopefully he won’t slurp too loudly or start coughing and having a heart attack while we’re on this call.

Um, and also as, as my luck would have it, my internet is being wonky today. So, you know, you just gotta love it. Uh, we like to work with chaos. That’s, you go, you all are used to that, right? Um, so we’re in, I’m in good company. Um, but anyway, it’s so nice to to see all of you. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Um, thank you so much to Julie, um, and MEFA for giving me this opportunity to speak with you all today.

I think we’re going to have fun. It should be an interactive session and you know, we don’t wanna take ourselves too seriously, but obviously this is a topic that is important and we wanna treat [00:03:00] it as such. Um, while still being able to joke around and have fun. I also wanna thank, um, Oria for being on the call, te or Montero.

You’ll see her up on the screen. She is my assistant director at NextGen Talent, um, without whom I could not do this work. Um, I’ll give a little bit of background on myself and NextGen quickly, but then I just would love for us to jump in. I wish we had time to kind of. Meet everyone, but maybe one of these days I can, I can do that with you all individually after this.

Um, but it’s so nice to see so many faces on here. And, and shout out to New Hampshire. I didn’t know New Hampshire was gonna be on this call, too. Um, my name again is Norm. Thank you again, Julie. You’ve been a wonderful partner to us and we’re excited about the work moving forward too. I am, um, from Jamaica Plain in Boston originally.

I now live a little south of Boston and I have worked in education and workforce development for many years now. I co-founded NextGen Talent, um, several years ago, primarily because I started to get really nervous about the fact that I was seeing so many low income students and students of color immigrant students, [00:04:00] first generation college students.

Not getting a good payoff from post-secondary credential. Um, so seeing that they were graduating with four year degree, um, and not able to sort of ever move out of their parents’ home or pay back their student loans on time. You know, making low wages even after all of that sacrifice or worse dropping out, um, with, with sort of debt but no credential at all.

Um, and was starting to think about how we could reimagine the career development services for students from marginalized communities. And so next gen talent is really about making sure that we can empower counselors like you and staff like you to be able to provide post-secondary advising that is more evidence based, that’s more strategic and that’s more career focused.

Um, and part of the way that we do that is that we’ve developed innovative first of their kind tools in the country to help counselors and other staff identify and their students identify where the well paying jobs in your region, number one, and also where do you get training for those jobs, whether that’s two.[00:05:00]

Trades apprenticeship, um, civil service training, like Firefighter Academy, um, et cetera, or like a year up type of program in it. So lots of exciting things that we’re working on and I’m really happy to, um, sort of talk with you all today about. Our professional development wing, which is what this, this MEFA Institute is, uh, session is about.

Um, and this particular topic being very near and dear to my heart around confronting bias, um, in career advising for young people, right? So there’s a lot of talk around bias when it comes to academic advising. Um, there’s some research on that. There’s some talk around bias and career advising for adults.

There’s very little around how we deal with this issue, right? When we’re talking about young people. Um, and when I say young, I mean anywhere from middle school, high school to all the way up into the first few years of post-secondary. Um, so just very excited to have you all here today. Um, and would love to ask if we can do some interactive activities.

If you all happen to have a [00:06:00] piece of paper in front of you and a pen or a, a pencil, that would be really helpful. We’re also going to be making use of the chat. I, I have some games I would like for you all to play. And please bear with me because I normally do this in person. Um. And this is the first time we’re doing it online with, with a large group.

So it’s going to be interesting to see how this, uh, plays out. Um, but thank you for your patience. We’re gonna do our best, um, to make this as interactive as possible. But thank you all again for being a part of this and I’m super excited. Um, so let me share my screen with you if that’s okay. Julie, is that fine if I start that already?

Wonderful. And let me know if you’re seeing something odd like, you know, Amazon, uh, shopping list or something. Okay.

All right. Can everyone see this? Go to the my slide show here. Can everyone see the, the cover slide here? Confronting bias looks perfect? Yes. Yes. Okay, wonderful. Thank you. So thank you all so much. So. Again, this workshop, you know, this, we could [00:07:00] talk about this all day. This could be several weeks of time that we could spend on this topic, but we have an hour and a half today.

Um, and we’re gonna try to make the best use of it as we can. I did wanna mention to you all that, that at the, one of the last few slides, and I know that MEFA will be sharing the slide deck with you all after this is over, um, does have a link to a folder with additional resources. Um, so things like a list of other resources that you can use to explore that topic of bias, right?

With students, um, or as staff. Um, as well as sort of some tips that I give around how you can look for, um, diverse career professionals through your LinkedIn profile and in the LinkedIn count that you have, um, and some sort of potential answers to the, the fun game that we’re gonna be, um, playing next. So, um, if you all are ready, um, and this is going to be a timed game, so I, sorry, I’m sorry for giving you the pressure of that, but that’s the best way for this to work.

Um, I would love for you to start with this first game. So. Um, I’m going to show you on the next several [00:08:00] slides a phrase. Um, and I would like for each of you to come up, um, with one adjective, right, that comes to mind. So not a noun or a verb, but an actual adjective that comes to mind when you think of that phrase or when you hear that phrase.

Um, I’m going to give you 10 seconds to answer these per slide. I know that sounds really quick, but that’s intentional. Um, and I will give us some time to practice. So, um, so we can start with this first, very first example. So example one is eating cilantro, and you need, you have 10 seconds to come up with an adjective for this.

Ready go.

Okay, next. I know that’s fast. Um, number two, riding the MBTA.[00:09:00]

Okay. Last one. Your date invites you to a robbery.

Okay. Anyone willing to come off of the mic? Come onto the mic and, and share one of your answers?

Orquidia Montero: I’ll please. Sarah? Yes. Thank you. I did cilantro. I wrote soapy.

Norma Rey Alicea: You’re one of those that has the gene. Yes.

Orquidia Montero: I’m the complete

Norma Rey Alicea: opposite. [00:10:00]

Orquidia Montero: MBTA is frustrating and, uh, inviting me to a ro robbery is ridiculous. Yeah.

Norma Rey Alicea: Excellent. So you all sort of get the point of this, right? This is trying to sort of uncover right, like immediate reactions to things when you don’t have too much time to think about them.

Right? Um, excellent. Thank you Sarah. Those were perfect. Those were perfect. I, I would say number two is the same for me. Frustrating. Even though I don’t write it that much now that I, um, that often now that I live out in the suburbs. Um, and I actually was like, that’s pretty imaginative to invite me to a robbery, but not in a good way.

Um, excellent. So this is perfect. So now you all kind of get the, the, the groove here, right? So let’s start with the first, the, the very first exercise. We’re gonna start with the first phrase. Okay. You guys ready? Excellent. Let’s go. High school counselor Job.[00:11:00]

Next, the military.

Six college career services. So you know those career services departments at institutions, college institutions,

next, social media.

Number eight politician. No swears allowed[00:12:00]

unless you put a why at the end. Then it’s an adjective. Then we’ll, we’ll let, we’ll, we’ll just stop recording

next. Psychology as a college major.

Number 10, plumbing work.

11 Corporate job

12. Living with your in-laws[00:13:00]

13 Police officer.

Okay. That’s the end of that activity. So was wondering if anyone would be willing, I, I might, you know, choose some randomly to share some of their answers to these, right? So, for example, is anyone willing to share? And you can also put this in the chat if you’d like, what your adjective was for police officer.[00:14:00]

I said, dangerous. Dangerous, interesting

on both sides.

Norma Rey Alicea: Mm mm-hmm. Anyone else?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Someone in the chat said, biased.

Norma Rey Alicea: Biased. Very interesting. Mm-hmm. You get points for using the word of the day.

Anyone else?

How about plumbing work?

What are people’s adjectives for that?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Expensive, lucrative,

Norma Rey Alicea: yes.

Anyone else dirty? That, that’s one [00:15:00] that often comes up when I, when I ask young people this.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Mm-hmm.

Norma Rey Alicea: What about psychology, college major? What were people’s answers to that?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: We have words like vast,

Norma Rey Alicea: typical, typical, interesting, uhhuh,

Julie Shields-Rutyna: and interesting is another one.

Norma Rey Alicea: Mm-hmm.

Very good politician.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Powerful, sketchy, untrustworthy. Pitiful.

Norma Rey Alicea: Ooh. Oh, pitiful. Ooh, ooh. We went from bad to worse. Okay. Okay. The military.[00:16:00]

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Discipline, honorable sacrifice.

Norma Rey Alicea: Excellent. I’ll share it with you all. Um, when I, now I’m going to show my bias. So I happen to be married to someone who’s been in the army for many years now, but I still, because of some of the experiences I had growing up in JP in a low income area where we had a lot of recruiters, especially coming around for the sort of the low income men of color, um, I, I have answered this question with the pre, uh, adjective, predatory, and I still very much have that bias, even though I obviously see that there’s also, you know, there are wonderful people in the military, like my husband, I’m part of a military family, et cetera, et cetera, but I still have that ingrained right bias in my mind.

Someone

Julie Shields-Rutyna: else mentioned the [00:17:00] opposite, you know, honorable.

Norma Rey Alicea: Yes, exactly. And we go, we swing right between, very negative to very positive, to anywhere in between to stuff that’s a little bit less sort of judgmental. Right. Um, what about high school counselor job? What do people say for that? Uh, oh, I’m bracing myself for this one.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Overwhelming

Norma Rey Alicea: uhhuh.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Multifaceted.

Norma Rey Alicea: That’s right.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Rewarding, meaningful, demanding, challenging.

Norma Rey Alicea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. My answer when I first took this quiz for myself, when, or, and I practiced these, like, uh, we, we made ourselves do it, um, was underpaid.

Excellent. And so those are some examples, right? Of, of sort of we can start to see right, how people have this range of emotion and feeling, right. And, and the way that they qualify, [00:18:00] right? What these things mean to them, especially when they have little time to think about it. Um, and how bias can kind of creep in, right?

To some of our, our right. Our answers. Um, and so that’s, that’s, that’s very interesting. Thank you guys for, you know, entertaining me with that one. Um, and I, I will say at the, the very top of this webinar, I wanna make sure I get this out before we run outta time, that I’m so grateful to you all for the work that you do, especially because your work is so multifaceted.

I was saying you’re basically like a. You know, a, a teacher, uh, you know, uh, you know, putting out the fire person, the therapist, the, you know, best friend, the, you know, advisor, the, all of the things, right? Um, sometimes you give advice about all kinds of situations, right? Not just academic and career and post-secondary.

Um, you do very much underappreciated, I think work, um, and very much underpaid work. So we appreciate you all for the work that you do every day with our young people. So our next, uh, that was sort of a, to warm you up, right? But this next game is going to take [00:19:00] a, I think, a little bit harder thinking, right?

So, um, but again, it’s going to un uncover some interesting things and it’s going to reveal a lot of the ways that. We have been conditioned to think the things that we’ve been exposed to, right? The way that we’ve been educated, right? What we’ve been exposed to or not. So for the next exercise, I would love for you all instead of an adjective, I want you to write the name of a person who comes to mind when you think of the following phrase that I give you right now.

This person can be alive or deceased. Um, you’ll have now 20 seconds per slide, and I would like for you to name someone that. At least some people could recognize, right? So it doesn’t have to be everybody, but you know, not, so, you know, we don’t want you mentioning someone like your neighbor who, um, barely any of us would know.

Right? Someone did that last time when we were doing this. It was hilarious. One person literally wrote like, all people, they were like, my boyfriend, my, this, my that. And I was like, that’s not, no, no. Okay, but fine. Um, I, I, you need more time. I get it. Um, [00:20:00] so let’s start this one again. I’m gonna give you 20 seconds or so per slide.

Um, again, one person who comes to mind when you think of this phrase, ready?

Orquidia Montero: Okay, let’s

Norma Rey Alicea: go. We’re gonna practice with a celebrity you find attractive.

Number two, a blonde, spiritual, or religious leader. This can be male or female or anything in between.[00:21:00]

Last one to practice, right? Inspirational Muslim public figure.

Excellent. Can I get some people to shout out some, some answers for this very last one I asked the Muslim public figure who is inspirational may not be inspirational to you, but inspirational to some.[00:22:00]

What are some folks’ answers for that?

I’ll start. For me, I would, I was thinking either Malcolm X or uh, Muhammad Ali,

Julie Shields-Rutyna: and someone said Malala.

Norma Rey Alicea: Absolutely.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And Ilhan Omar?

Norma Rey Alicea: Yes.

Anyone else?

What about blonde, spiritual, or religious leader

answers for that?[00:23:00]

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Someone said the Pope before he was bald.

Norma Rey Alicea: Okay. Which one? Yes. Anyone else?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: I wrote Joseph Smith, you know, but I don’t, I actually don’t even know what he looks like. I’m, maybe I, so I’m just making an assumption maybe that he was blonde

Norma Rey Alicea: though. Yes, I, yeah. I’m not sure. Sure. But I have no idea. I just brunette or a blonde. Yes. So it’s interesting when I’ve done this exercise in the past with advisors or students, some of them will write Jesus Christ, um, in there, which.

Again, it’s very interesting because when we look at sort of the, any, the scientific evidence that exists, right, about what Jesus Christ would have looked like, he would’ve been a darker skinned, like a brown skinned, um, darker haired, um, um, gentleman, right? So, um, according to the science, he would not be blonde.

Um, but again, it shows sort of the, what [00:24:00] we see in images, right? Um, especially those of us who grew up right in Catholicism and Christianity. Um, but even, you know, what you see in in popular media celebrity you find attractive. I’m just curious, what are people’s answers?

Anyone?

Of all the ones, this is the one that you guys are afraid to, to speak up about. Oh, Hozier

Julie Shields-Rutyna: the singer.

Norma Rey Alicea: Oh, interesting. Hozier. Okay.

Anyone else? Ke Kena Reeves. Oh, Keanu Reeves taking it back. Generation X. Love that. Excellent. Okay. But so you all get the, get, get the point, right? So let’s start with the [00:25:00] actual activity now, right? These were practice. Um, again, I’m gonna give you 20 seconds and please, you know, jot down what your answers are and you can number them if you sort of forget what’s what.

Okay. You guys ready? You guys are doing great so far. Okay, let’s go. Black scientist.

A fashion figure who identifies as lesbian.[00:26:00]

Next, a Native American politician in the United States.

Number seven, a TV star with a bad attitude.[00:27:00]

Number eight, an Asian American dancer, and specifically Asian American, not just Asian. So born in this country.

Number nine, a Latina business leader, female, or identifies as female.[00:28:00]

Number 10, a male heart throb with a disability.

Okay. How did we do guys? Okay. This is going to be very interesting. Um, did, could anyone share with me their answer for this last one? Male heartthrob with a disability.[00:29:00]

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Michael J. Fox,

Norma Rey Alicea: my excellent one. Yes. Michael J. Fox grew up watching him for many years.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Christopher Reeve.

Norma Rey Alicea: Christopher Reeve. Yes. Another good one.

Anyone else?

Was anyone able to think of a person of color who’s a male heartthrob with a disability? I find that that’s usually harder for people.

Mm-hmm.

What about a TV star with a bad attitude?[00:30:00]

Feel free to write in the chat too. I would say Johnny Bananas, he’s on that show. The challenge, I don’t know if you all watch that, uh, reality TV series.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Someone. Ramona Singer.

Norma Rey Alicea: Oh, real Housewives. Yes. I love my people. I love my people or, and I are huge fans of Real Housewives. That’s hilarious. And we have 100%, who else? Sorry.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Fonzi. Happy Days. Oh man. And Sean Penn.

Norma Rey Alicea: Sean Penn. Ah, okay.

I’m liking this. It’s actually very interesting. Oftentimes I see in trainings that folks will answer more often with women’s names, um, when they think of bad attitudes and sometimes women of colors names, which is very interesting. The fawns man. I, uh, I loved him. I, that was my crush when I was little.

It’s so funny. Now I look at him and I’m like, really? [00:31:00] Norma? Okay. Any, could anyone come up with the name of a Native American politician in the United States, either currently serving or has served in the past?

It’s difficult. Right. And as, as a native myself, this is often, this is often I would say the racial category where people have the most trouble coming up with figures. Right. Um, and names, just across any sort of description I give, whether it’s some, some sort of career, some sort of celebrity. Very difficult.

How about a black scientist? What were people’s answers for that? That was so

hard.

Norma Rey Alicea: I automatically thought about Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: George Washington Carver,

Norma Rey Alicea: yes. [00:32:00] Back. Neil Degrass to

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Tyson. Yep. A throw

Norma Rey Alicea: back to the peanuts. Shout out to the peanuts. That’s right. If y’all didn’t know Neil deGrasse Tyson is a, is a great example too, to give with young people because he’s also part Puerto Rican, his mom’s Puerto Rican.

Anyone else? Any other answers?

How about an Asian American dancer?

I automatically thought of, um, about Cheryl Burke, I think is her name. I think she’s on that show, dancing With the Stars, which I don’t really watch, but she’s been out in the media quite for, for the last 10 years. Pretty heavy, heavily. Anyone else? Any other answers there?

Is that a hard one for folks?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Diet [00:33:00] tricks. So you think you can dance?

Norma Rey Alicea: Yes. Love that show too.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Mira Naone Na.

Norma Rey Alicea: Yes. Okay. Yes.

How about last one, how about Latina business leader? Who are people’s answers for that?

Anyone?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Selena Gomez.

Norma Rey Alicea: Interesting. Okay, Norma, uh, oh,

thank you. If only I made the money of a business hater, but I appreciate that. Thank y’all.

Yes. I, I came up with, and of course now I’m, now I’m blanking on her name, but she, um, she has the, um, the honest line. What is her name? Alba. She’s, uh. [00:34:00] Alba. She is Mexican and native. Uh, she’s an actress, but she also owns a skincare line now, and she also sells products for babies and things. I think it’s called the Honest Line.

I’m totally blanking on her name. Somebody help me. I had it, I had it earlier

Julie Shields-Rutyna: and three, three people said, Jessica Alba.

Norma Rey Alicea: Jessica Alba. Thank you. Jessica Alba. Yes, yes, yes. And Selena Gomez has a makeup line, right? She’s, she’s recently become, I think she is, she might be a million billionaire at this point with her line.

Excellent. Ys some great, great, great answers. Thank you guys. Uh, I, I wanted to ask if, if anyone would be willing to sort of get on the mic and talk about some aha moments they had during either of these exercises or things that they found interesting or sort of surprising, whether that’s their from their own answers.

There are lack thereof or [00:35:00] someone else’s answers, some sort of themes here that you found interesting when it comes to this idea of bias.

And I can start with one that I’ve definitely noticed and Ovia can chime in too. Um, that, you know, it can be because of the way that we’re conditioned to think. Sadly, it can be difficult for a lot of people to sort of associate someone with a disability as being, with being a heartthrob, right? We don’t usually associate disability with attractiveness.

Right. Um, which is really sad, um, and should never be the case. Um, but that’s something that you see oftentimes people get stumped and they kind of get stuck there. Um, oftentimes, like we, you know, again. We don’t teach a lot about Native Americans in general beyond sort of like in the history books back in the day.

And some of that history is not even completely accurate or told from the perspective of a, of a native person. Um, and so to be taught about, for [00:36:00] example, you know, an elected official who’s Native American nowadays, it’s, it’s rare that you find that, um, it’s rare that people pay attention to that. Um, it’s, we’re still very much an invisible community in the United States, sadly.

Um. Interestingly enough, even though we think of fashion figures as, um, you know, people that obviously are, you know, can be very, are, are very artistic and we don’t, you know, we don’t think necessarily about, um, sort of sexual preference or um, sexual identity with them. Um, what you do see in the fashion industry oftentimes is that men dominate, right?

Um, in cisgender heterosexual men dominate that industry. And it can actually be very difficult to come up with names of women in certain categories. Um, especially when you ask from, from this angle, right? Um, black scientists, you’d think this should be not that difficult for most of us, but it can be.

I’ve found in a lot of these, I actually literally had in our last. Uh, the last time we did this workshop, or will remember that an actual science teacher could not come [00:37:00] up with the name of a black scientist, um, um, which was quite telling, right? Um, and she was so frustrated with herself and she was like, just gimme 10 more seconds.

I have it at the tip of my tongue. Um, but you know, we can see how sometimes just having to come up with things quickly, what comes to to mind sometimes doesn’t, you know, isn’t exact. We just, we totally hit a blank. We have to really think hard. But any, any other sort of observations about what we see from these kinds of activities?

I’m gonna start pulling the, like, I’m just gonna call a name. I’m just gonna call on somebody like what we used to do to our kids. Like Lenny, please. I’m just kidding. Anybody, anybody. But no, that’s

a, i I don’t mind answering the,

Norma Rey Alicea: okay.

Naming the people was the hardest part for me because I don’t pay that much attention to that stuff.

So I couldn’t name anybody [00:38:00] of any race, color, or religion to do almost any of those. Um, like I don’t watch any dance shows, so I couldn’t come up with a dancer, male female of any ethnic background at all. Um, so I that I was noticing that I just don’t pay attention enough, anybody.

Norma Rey Alicea: Interesting. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Thank you for sharing that, Lenny. Anyone else?

Okay. Okay. I, I will, I won’t pressure you anymore. You guys gave some great answers. Um, so let’s actually move forward. Thank you guys for participating in those, but I hope it does start to sort of make, kind of get your wheels turning right and thinking about how this stuff works and how bias, you know, how it, it sort of moves us in different directions, right?

Um, and it all has to do with exactly the things that we see on TV who we’re friends with, right? What we’re exposed to in school, um, [00:39:00] where we grew up, right? Uh, what our backgrounds are, all kinds of things, right? What we notice and what we don’t notice, for example. Um, and so that being said, I wanted to just quickly go over what the learning outcomes I would like for today to be right?

Just to, to make sure that we’re all on the same page. And I, I know you all read this in description about the webinar, is that we wanna make sure that we learn about what biases and understanding what it means, right? And how can it affect students, uh, sort of that formation of their career identity, right?

How they think about the careers that they’re going to explore, um, that they find interesting or not, et cetera. Um, and what that means for who they are and what their values are, and what their goals are, et cetera. As well as. How it can, how bias can affect, right. Their decision making when it comes to their post-secondary path or their career path.

We also wanna look at how, especially unconscious bias, right, impacts sort of your practice and interaction with students when you advise them, um, including sort of the career and post-secondary exploration process, um, and guidance that [00:40:00] students receive and accept from you and other staff people, right?

Or your colleagues or not. Right? We wanna learn, um, as much as we can in the short time about bias in the Massachusetts labor market specifically. I’m super excited to have so many of you from around the state on this call in, normally we are talking about a specific, uh, regional labor market when we do these, um, these professional development sessions.

But here we’re able to, to finally talk about Massachusetts as a whole. So we’re excited about that. Then also wanna spend some time learning about sort of some strategies and tools that you can use to minimize bias as much as possible. Not just sort of in your work and in yourself, but also within students, right?

Students have their own biases. We all have bias, right? And so we can never completely get rid of bias, but what we can do is try to be, you know, be aware of it, minimize it as much as possible, ask ourselves the hard questions, et cetera. Excellent. Let’s move

Julie Shields-Rutyna: forward.

Norma Rey Alicea: Oops, sorry. Okay, so just a quick sort of [00:41:00] definition, and again, this is going to be like, you know, uh, kindergarten stuff for a lot of y’all on this call, I’m sure you’ve, you’ve heard this before, um, but just to make sure again that we’re on the same page, when we define bias, I’m talking specifically about some sort of prejudice, whether it’s in favor of or against.

It could be a person, it could be a group, right? Um, it could be a thing, right? Compared with some other, right? Um, typically in a way that’s considered unfair, right? So generally speaking, that last part is kind of important. Um, and bias exists, right? Um, sort of in lots of different ways, right? And it can be held by individuals like us.

It can be held by a group of people, right? It can be held by an institution, right? An organization, um, et cetera. And it can have positive or negative consequences. Right? Um, and we know that there are two types of bias. We have explicit bias, right? Or conscious bias. And then we have unconscious or implicit bias.

And we’re gonna be focusing a lot on the second, right? On the second of those unconscious or implicit bias, which [00:42:00] oftentimes, oftentimes happens because our brain likes to make shortcuts, right? In the way that we think, especially when we’re under pressure, right? Which is what happens sometimes when I ask in those quizzes, like, name me this.

Sometimes we’ll go to this shortcut of like, oh, a bad attitude. I’m thinking about my mom and she has a bad attitude. Who looks like my mom or who, whatever. Right? And we make these like shortcuts in our brain that sometimes reveal biases that we, we weren’t even aware that we had, right? Or that we don’t mean to be negative or you know, badly intentioned, but there they are, right?

They can come across that way. So there are lots of different types of bias, and I’m sure, again, you all have seen these kinds of things before in presentations. We won’t go through all of these in every single one. Um, but I will just point out for you that, again, these are, these are, this is a PowerPoint that I would love for you all to use as sort of a takeaway resource.

So you can look through these stats on your own after this is over. But you’ll see here that we have some of the main ones that we tend to hear about around gender or race [00:43:00] or religion, age, ability, et cetera, sexuality. Um, and I have some statistics here so that you can see them. Most of these, um, are US wide, but some are Massachusetts based, as you’ll see.

And, you know, we can point some out. So for example, we know that there’s gender bias when it comes to right hiring. So women are 25 to 46% more likely to get a job when their interviews or auditions are complete. Right. Um, very interesting. That’s a huge, huge difference, right? In percentage. Right. We also know that, and this is a very interesting one that I found in my research that female school counselors recommended math as a major relative to something like English 13.6 percentage points less for an academically outstanding female versus a, an outstanding male student.

Right? And again, these are female school counselors, so we can also have bias, including implicit bias, right? Against our own group, right? So female against other females, right? Um, very interesting women against women. Um, also all [00:44:00] kinds of racial biases. We have heard a lot about this in the news. We’ve been grappling with this as, as a country forever.

Um, and it has come to a head in a lot of ways in the last, uh, the last several years. But you can see the stats there. Um, we know that when, you know, people perceive, look at certain names on resumes or on phone calls, or they hear a certain kind of voice, oftentimes if they perceive that voice as black, they won’t give the job as often to that name or that voice as they will to a white sounding name, um, um, or a white looking name, right?

Um, those are just facts unfortunately that we live with. Um, age, right? There’s a lot of people are talking about ageism. In fact, um, I don’t know if y y’all are familiar with the company, the defense contractor company out here, Raytheon in Massachusetts, was just sued by um, an older gentleman who, um, basically is claiming that.

The company is being ageist by, um, preferring and even saying on job descriptions that they prefer recent college graduates for certain jobs. Jobs that he has applied to and been [00:45:00] rejected from multiple times, even though he has 40 something years of experience. Um, and so ageism, right? And this has been an especially interesting topic when you think about women as well, and, and sort of the, the, the high price that we put on how women look as they age and, um, and, and how they’re discriminated against when, you know, when they seem to look less attractive over time and as they get older.

Um, LGBTQ plus, right? It’s, um, et cetera. Um, we could go on and on, but you can see here some examples of bias, um, that are really important for us to understand, um, and, and that, you know, are interesting for you to be able to talk with your students about when you get a chance. That bias kind of exists everywhere on so many different kinds of levels.

Next. So here’s where we kind of come to what we wanna talk about the most today, right? There’s bias in our field, right? And in in the systems that be right. Um, what we see, and it’s interesting because when I was researching to put together this professional development session on this [00:46:00] particular topic, I looked through every single like thing I could find online.

I borrowed my best friend who’s a professor’s library to us, UU Michigan Library password. So I could look up, right, what are, what are all, what’s all the data on bias when it comes to career counseling? Um, and, and what you see, is that right? Traditional career counseling theories and methodologies. And practices, right?

They’re generally written by white scholars, right? And they’re very much focused on historically, right? And they’re focused. Values, right? And European values of things like individuality, right? Being important or competition being necessary, or the separation of work and family, right? Or pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps mentality.

Um, and this has kind of permeated the, the traditional career counseling theories that are out there that have then right trickled down to, into how we talk about these things. Um, now that’s not to say that there has haven’t been some inroads, right? By, you know, professionals of color, counselors of color in this work.

But to be honest, there’s very little [00:47:00] written, um, out there. If you were to go look this stuff up now, you’ll see that again, most of the time you’re not seeing that from, um, communities of color, those theories as much, right? I would say if you find 10% of the theories are from people of color, I would be shocked.

Um, and so that already shows some sort of sort of bias, right? We also know that systemic bias really. Tends to inflate, right? And exact and, and, and to perpetuate inequalities in the job market and workforce, right? Um, and one thing that I always like to teach folks and talk with folks about is that we know that, you know, if when organizations and companies are less biased, right?

When they’re more fair, um, when they are looking to actively recruit diverse folks, they actually tend to be way more effective in their work. They are more profitable, um, than companies that don’t do those things. And organizations that don’t do those things and their work teams are more, are, are stronger, right?

So, um, and that, that, that just bears itself out in the science, [00:48:00] thank goodness. So we know that this is not just like a feel good, we should do this because it’s fair. It actually also makes a difference when it comes to money, when it comes to effect, right? The, the efficacy of work and how effective the work is.

The other thing that I wanted to mention, and we don’t talk about this, I think enough in the field, is that what we’re seeing in terms of black and La Latinx students specifically is that they are more likely to pick college majors that result in lower pay, right. Um, than, right than their, their peers.

Um, and they also suffer from higher underemployment rates. Um, meaning that they’re working in jobs that require less than the credential they actually have. And we know there are lots of different reasons for this, right? Some of this is a lack of exposure to higher paying careers, right? Um, some of it is a lack of connections to professionals across a wide range of industries and in high positions and in positions of power, right?

But the fact of the matter stands that we need to think as a field about how to deal with this because when we think about [00:49:00] right. Communities of color, people of color, low income students being able to attain jobs that pay them well, that allow them to save money over time, that allow them to invest, that allow them to buy homes and, you know, right.

Create inter-generational wealth. A lot of this starts right, with counseling, and it starts with what are they exposed to in terms of the jobs and the careers that are out there, right? And so what is our role in being, being able to talk with them about that in a way that highlights this issue and addresses it, right?

Um, we also know that black and Latino students are less likely to land well paying jobs post-graduation, right? Even with the same, with the same level of education. Um, and so again, these are biases that we continue to see and here’s where I wanna have some more interaction with y’all. And so I would really appreciate if some of you could put in the chat or, or, you know, come off a mic and talk or come onto the mic and talk.

Um, but I wanted to explore. Sort of some ways that biases show up, [00:50:00] right? In the way that young people think about careers, the way they explore them, the way the decisions that they make around them, et cetera. And so I, I wrote down some of the examples that Orke and I have heard in our work and the draining that we do when we work with high school counselors and other co you know, college access and success, um, advisors, et cetera.

Um, anyone who advises young people around post-secondary and careers. Some examples that we’ve seen, right, from students in terms of sort of biases that they hold, right? Or the way that they might think about themselves that biases the careers they explore, for example, or the way they think about certain careers.

So here are some examples that you’ll see, right? Like, I don’t see people like me in that kind of work, so I don’t really think it’s for me. And they may not say that out loud, but you kind of know that that’s an issue, right? That there isn’t that representation there, right? Or I’m not smart enough to be X, Y, and Z to become this thing, right?

Or we all, we a lot of times see that. Families can influence the way young people think about the careers they wanna explore. They think they should explore, [00:51:00] right? My dad says I should become a doctor because doctors make good money and they’re well respected. We see this a lot, especially when it comes to a lot of immigrant, right?

Um, certain cultures, immigrant cultures where, um, certain kinds of jobs are considered like the most respectable, right? So like doctor, attorney, et cetera. Um, and you know, we often see that, I see that a lot in a lot of my African students, a lot of my South American students, et cetera. Um, or things like, I wanna become a nurse because they make money, honey, right?

So. This bias that young people have around like, I just wanna make money. And that’s the most important thing. Right? And we know it’s not the only and the most important thing. Now, does it matter? Sure. They should know, right? What some, what they could earn based off of whatever careers they’re exploring, right?

And specifically in their region, what’s the, the region regional wage they could earn. But it’s not the only thing, right? We know that, um, they need to explore, like, are they a good fit for that job? Will they enjoy it? Will they find it satisfying? Do they have the skills right? Or will they be able to develop those [00:52:00] to do well in the, that job?

So it’s not just about money, right? But also things like, my grandmother wants me to carry on the f family business. So I kind of feel stuck like this is, this is, this is what I’m up to, right? This is what I’m thinking about. And then this one, which I don’t think people talk about enough, which is. A lot of times, especially students from um, say low income communities of color, um, or just low income, you know, communities, regardless of racial background, they will oftentimes aspire to be the, the jobs that they saw and had the most interaction from or benefited the most from, right?

Or were inspired the most by just within their small right bubble of a neighborhood. And so they don’t have the imagination beyond that. And that’s not a bad thing, but it’s, it’s, it’s a bad thing when that’s all they know, right? When it’s like, I only know about police officers and teachers and probation officers and, you know, clerks at a desk, um, or you know, the receptionist at the hospital, but I don’t really know what a surgical technologist is or what a chemical engineer is, right?

Or what, et cetera, right? We wanna make sure [00:53:00] that students can see beyond, right. It’s important to understand what’s around them, but also what’s, what’s beyond their imagination sometimes. And so we, we should be able to help them explore that or things like, I’m a small woman, so I don’t think I can work in construction, right?

And yes. Are there some construction jobs that require that you’re able to lift a certain amount of pounds? You know, like 50 pounds plus? Yes. But then there are others where, you know, that doesn’t happen as often, right? Um, or, you know, it’s, it’s not as, as, um, essential to the job. Right? Um, or things like, I don’t, you know, I don’t wanna go to a community college.

It’s not like a real college, right? There are a lot of students that have these. Horrible ideas about community college. Like one of my, one of my students 1, 1 1 time said to me, I don’t wanna go to community college. That’s so corny. And I was like, corny. Really? That’s the adjective that you decided to use.

Right. And it’s these, these ideas that they have about like, it’s not a real college or that’s for kids that aren’t as smart. Right. And having, trying to work to dissel dispel those myths. Right. Those are [00:54:00] myths and misconceptions that we have to work with. Are there other examples that any of y’all can share with us of sort of biases that students, you’ve heard students talk about, um, that you’re concerned about?

Students talking about things you’ve had to talk with them about the kind of, kind of dispel or say like, Hey, let’s think about it this other way. Could y’all put some of those in the chat? Or just, or just speak up.

Just, um, going off that idea of like what real college is, that’s something that me and my counseling colleagues spend a lot of time with our seniors on talking about like, what’s college? And we use, we tell them like, any sort of education after high school is like some sort of college. It’s gonna open up your job opportunities.

But that’s a like discussion that we very specifically have to have is that there’s no like, fake [00:55:00] education after high school. It all counts.

Norma Rey Alicea: It’s all an excellent post-secondary education. Absolutely. And a two year college degree is a college degree. Right. Um, exactly. And a certificate from a community college is a certificate from a college.

Exactly. Excellent. Brittany, thank you for for saying that. Anyone else? What are some that I haven’t covered here? I.

I get a lot of students that they can’t go to college because they have to work to contribute to the family.

Norma Rey Alicea: Yes, 100%. Yep. And it’s that financial pressure, right? Mm-hmm. Um, that, that definitely will bias them against certain kinds of things because they just don’t see it as an, it’s just not an option.

It’s not an option. Right? Um, and that’s, that’s very sad. And trying to figure out ways to work with them so that they, they can figure out a way. And that’s why I’m such a big a fan of things like the building trades, apprenticeships, right? Because they pay you to train, right? So if you were to join, like say a union apprenticeship program in electrical or carpentry or [00:56:00] sheet metal, right?

Day one you’re getting paid to train. So you’re getting paid to train while you’re getting work experience and you’re learning, right? Um, and so those are great options for folks that, um, are really worried about money. Off, off rip, right?

And now with Mass Educate, with community colleges being free. Um, this year I had several students who ended up going there because they weren’t going to go at all, but when they found out it was free, they decided to to jump on it.

Norma Rey Alicea: That’s right. It’s a great thing that, that the state has done, so, no, that’s, that’s terrific. Thank you, Lenny. Anyone else?

Julie Shields-Rutyna: I guess I’ll just build upon that of students needing to work right, right away and yeah. So careers like being a doctor or a lawyer or something that just, you know, the education seems like it’s so many years away. It’s, I think it’s very hard to fathom how, you know, how, and maybe [00:57:00] they’re, if they don’t know someone else who’s done that path and can say, well, this is how it works.

I think those, um, some of those careers seem so far out of reality for some students. Yeah.

Norma Rey Alicea: That’s right. Absolutely. That’s right, Julie. Excellent. Anyone else?

Another thing I find that’s a lot of the students that I work with is they hate high school. They hate being here. They don’t do well. They’re focused on other things. So they think their high school experience is a college experience would just be more of the same with with alcohol. Mm-hmm. Oh, gosh. So it’s, it’s important to, to show them that there’s more than one way to do anything.

Right. And that just because high school isn’t your thing, people thrive in different training programs or college programs. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s very different from high school and they don’t see that they, they see what they see in the movies, and that’s what they [00:58:00] expect it to be. And I think we need to just start changing what, what people perceive as the college or the afterschool experience.

Norma Rey Alicea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And to be fair, right, so many of them have gone through covid and being locked down and, you know, online classes and not had the full high school experience. That in some ways was very, it is very romanticized in movies on the flip side. Right. That, um, and so some of them are just so over it that, um, or, you know, just, just, you know, dealing with all of the various things with social media now and that whole culture in high school, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not easy.

It’s a very different world now. Right. Excellent. And so, you know, we also see bias, right? Um, when it comes to things that we hear from, from counselors themselves, right? Or ourselves, right? Where, for example, I’ve heard counselors say things like, you know, like, yeah, well, you know, if you wanna, you know, if you’re not gonna do college, like it’ll be easier, you know, why don’t you look at like an apprenticeship program in construction or something, right?

When in fact [00:59:00] that’s construction apprenticeship programs can be as competitive, if not more in terms of their right, their acceptance rate, right? Um, as any college program. So for example, like I know Local 1 0 3 in Boston, right? That’s our electrician union apprenticeship program here in, in, in Greater Boston.

Um, their acceptance rate is something like 8%. It can be 5% sometimes. Um, and that’s, that’s way harder to get into, right? Than, than a lot of the college programs, right? That we talk with our students about. So it’s a myth to think, right, that it’s just easier or somehow you have to be less intelligent to go into construction, right?

There are just different, there are different skill sets, right? It’s just different kinds of work.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Someone mentioned, Laura mentioned

Norma Rey Alicea: that, yes.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Uh, she has many students who see influences, influencers are entrepreneurs online, on social media. Yes. And then they think, oh, well, so-and-so didn’t go to college, and now they’re a millionaire.

So that’s what I wanna do.

Norma Rey Alicea: 100%. We actually, or wrote an excellent, um, blog on one [01:00:00] in one of our, uh, platforms for next gen talent around, you know, so do you wanna be an influencer? You know, you wanna be an influencer? Like learn what it really takes to, to make it pay. Right. Um, and what we found is that only 12%.

Of social media influencers, um, make more than $50,000 a year. And that’s even when they’re at the sort of level of being, even be even being able to be called a social media influencer. Right? So TikTok has its own, you know, prerequisites for that and standards. Instagram has its standards, right? Um, um, YouTube has its standards.

Um, so again, it’s, you know, most people are not going to be able to make a, you know, a living and that have be their primary career, right. To make money. Right. It will have to be something on the side. Um, so yes, it’s very important to talk with young people about the reality and the statistics, right? Not to say they can’t do it, but for them to understand what it really takes and what really happens on the ground.

Right. Very good point. Very good point. And then you’ll also hear people, you know, at or, and I had this happen to us recently. [01:01:00] We were on a call, I will not name the school with a high school where they basically said, listen, our motto is four year college or bust. Right? Like, if you’re not gonna do four year college, you don’t belong here.

Um, they even said that if students, you know, they’ve had students that have gone to four year college and they’ve, uh, they’ve dropped out, they’ve not been able to persist, and then their sort of intervention with them after that is like, maybe you’re at the wrong college. Right? And so this idea of sort of like four year college degree, is it, right?

Like that has to be the goal for everyone. Right? And that’s, that’s a bias that we’ve seen in the, in the field for many, many years. And, um, luckily that’s, that’s starting to Right. Um, to, to go away a little bit more. Not to say that four year college isn’t great. Um, and we do know that folks who have a four year college degree will make more money over their lifetime than folks who don’t.

Right. We understand that it is important for many people, but it’s not the only path to a well-paying job. Right. And it’s important that we know that, and it’s not always the path to a well-paying job. Right. We know lots of folks who are in the situation where they have a [01:02:00] four year college degree. Um, but they’re in a low wage job and they have a ton of debt and they’re, they’re barely able to kind of shovel themselves out of it, right?

Um, over time. And so it’s not a guarantee that because you have a four year college, you’re gonna be financially stable or successful. Right? Other, you know, other ones that we’ve heard, right? Where, you know, I hear this a lot where there teachers, advisors will say things like, I heard that X program was good, or X program at this college was good.

So x, y you know, dot, dot, dot, right? Um, but no real evidence of it. No real stats about it. No real numbers around like, how do we know it’s good? Does it lead to a well paying job? What jobs does it actually lead to? How many of their students are actually getting employed after they graduate from that program?

Like, that’s stuff that we want students to understand and know if they can get that info right. Um, and then even things like, if you aren’t interested in college, why don’t you consider the military. Um, and, you know, as if it’s [01:03:00] just like either college or you go to the military. Right. And the idea is that there are a way, there are so many paths, right?

As, as many of y’all have mentioned, there are so many different kinds of paths nowadays. Um, two a year, four year, there are apprenticeships, there are, there are civil service job training, like Firefighter Academy or police academy, or there are, you know, it boot camps. There are all kinds of Right. Um, all kinds of different programs that exist.

Um, there are community-based organizations, nonprofits, that are doing wonderful jobs. JVS right? In Boston for example. So there are a lot, there are pre-apprenticeship programs, right? So there are lots of different kinds of options out there. We shouldn’t have students feel like it’s one or the other ever.

Right. Any other examples that y’all can think about that you’ve heard counselors say?

And I, I will mention one here that I find really interesting. I’ve run into a lot of advisors who’ve come to me and said, [01:04:00] I’m really afraid of appearing biased in the way that I provide my advice. Namely, I don’t want to discourage, and I hear this very often from white. Advisors and counselors or staff people working with students of color from low income communities where they’ll say, I don’t ever want someone to look at me saying to a student like, you know, I don’t know if you can do that because your grades aren’t great.

And then have them think that I’m sort of biased against them for some, you know, because of their race or something, or, you know, I have low expectations for them, or something like that. You know, it’s, it’s very interesting and I can understand that fear, right? And how things may look. Um, I wanna give you all, any of you on the call who have ever felt that way, the freedom to, to, to, to get away from feeling that way.

Um, and to say that, you know, we at Next Gen talent always say this, what’s most important is that you provide real information, right? Information that’s backed up by data. That’s backed up sometimes by young adults as well, but, but data and [01:05:00] evidence, right? Um, and that you keep it real and that you explain to students, like, here’s what you need to do to get to this point.

Right? It’s never about saying like, you can’t do this or you shouldn’t do that, or that’s a bad idea, but it’s about saying, listen, if you want to achieve this, you wanna get to this career, you wanna get to this step, these are the things you have to do in between, right? And what do we need to do to get you there?

Right? And you have to put in your work, and I, and I’m gonna be here for that journey, right? It’s never about discouraging, but it’s, it’s always about making sure we’re being real. Like I always say, you’re not in the process, like nobody’s trying to shatter dreams, but we’re also not trying to sell them right.

To students. Like the influencer thing, you know, like I hear, I’ll hear a counselor say like, you can be anything you want. No, you can’t. I say this to my son all the time. You can’t be anything you want. You can, you can do a lot of things if you put in the work, right? And sometimes even when you put in the work, it’s about who you know.

It’s about your networks. It’s about. Luck. It’s about opportunity, right? There’s, it’s about timing. There’s so many factors, right? So we just, I just wanna make sure that we feel like we, we are okay [01:06:00] with being real with students, right? We’re not here to sell dreams, right?

Excellent. Um, and so some trends and bias sort of, when we look at the Massachusetts labor market specifically, and I’d love to hear any, any sort of comments that you guys have about this as well. And I won’t go through everything here. Again, these are takeaway slides, so they’re pretty text heavy. Don’t ever use my design as a PowerPoint design because it’s too tech heavy, as y’all know.

Um, um, so you’ll see for example, like I have a number of different industries or sort of career areas here. Um, uh. Occupations. Right? So for example, healthcare, right? We know that many of the large hospitals in our state of Massachusetts, and even places like New Hampshire, for my New Hampshire lady on here, um, they tend to hire registered nurses with a four year nursing degree, right?

Not a two year degree. This is important for young people to know. Are there exceptions? Yes, there are exceptions. Um, oftentimes those, those exceptions for example, will be because someone has [01:07:00] already worked within the hospital system. So say they were, you know, a surgical tech. Um, in the hospital before, and now they’re, now they wanna, you know, then now they, they’re applying to be a nurse after they’ve gotten their training or they worked as a receptionist and people know them.

They have those connections, they have that in, but for the most part, right, for the very large hospitals, like a Brigham and Women’s, like a Beth Israel, right? Like those kinds of, like a mass general, right? Um, those kinds of hospitals tend to prefer, right, almost all the time. They wanna hire somebody with a four year degree.

So when we talk with young people, it’s important to recognize that bias amongst our employers and to say, listen, if you are looking at working at a larger hospital, most likely you need, you really need to get a four year nursing degree. Right now with a two year nursing degree, that’s still very valuable.

But more, more often than not, you’re going to be working in places like assisted living facilities or long-term, you know, long-term care facilities, nursing homes, et cetera. Right? That’s, that’s just the reality. That’s the bias, [01:08:00] right? That employers have, um, that we need to make sure our students understand.

Um, when we look at things like green jobs, right? We know that they’re growing clean energy jobs are growing. We have, uh, I was just reading the other day about how we have the largest, I think it’s like the o an, you know, um, sho offshore wind turbo, turbine, um, sort of factory, um, or, or field, um, off the coast of Martha’s Vineyard.

Um, it’s the largest in the country, um, producing electricity, and that’s one. There’s a lot of growth, right? We’re seeing in things like solar panel installation and maintenance, or wind turbine as I just said, or energy auditing or research and development, building energy, energy management, which my son is now studying, um, at college for an associate’s degree.

All this growth, right? We also know that electricians and plumbers, right, those will be important jobs, right as we transition to clean energy. But we all, but we see that, and I see this and Ovia can attest to this when we do trainings around the state for high school counselors and other advisors of youth, um, on their post-secondary crew paths, I would say [01:09:00] I would, we would be lucky if 10% of the advisors in the room know how to talk with students about.

The union apprenticeships in their area to get into the building trades or just the pre-apprenticeship programs in the building trades or any employer based Right. Apprenticeship programs. Um, most advisors, right? We’re well versed in things like how advise students into four year college programs or even some two year.

But when it comes to things like construction trades, we just don’t have as much knowledge, right? We’re not trained to know about those fields as much. And so that’s a bias that we hold oftentimes our organizations or our schools hold right? That we need to be aware to work against, right? So that we can make sure that we’re advising to all students and all of their various career interests.

Right? Um, we also see in construction, right, that, and, you know, this is well documented, right? That construction, the, the career area of construction is not as diverse in terms of hiring, in terms of. Um, um, advancement in terms of leadership as it should be. Um, not just here but across the [01:10:00] country, which is why so many, um, union apprenticeship programs are working to recruit more people of color and women, for example.

Um. You know, unfortunately, we’re also seeing that, you know, it’s still very much a good old boys network. Um, apprentices in these programs as well as tradespeople who work in the field already are, um, especially those of color, often report that they’re called racial slurs, right? By coworkers. My son himself dealt with this and an electrician apprenticeship program he was in, he was called Blackie, his, uh, his first week in with his, uh, journey person, um, who was his boss, um, and then was.

Sort of teased with that word for the rest of the time he was there. Um, a lot of women will report, right, that there are sexual jokes, that there’s harassment that happens on, um, during training or on the, on the work site. Um, and these are things, right, that these programs are grappling with, they’re trying to address and shut down as much as possible, but it still happens, right?

And so these biases that happen, right, um, within workers themselves against other workers, right? We know that nepotism is very [01:11:00] common in the construction industry, which disadvantages people who have not traditionally been part of that industry, which is, includes people of color in our state, right? So very important that students understand not only that these things can happen, especially if they are, are coming from communities that are not traditionally part of this industry, right?

If they’re women or people of color. Not that we want them to know, to expect it, but we want them to know, to expect it and how to deal with that, right? How to, how to talk with someone to report those things right? Is very important. And we do talk about that in some of the PD that we do, or Kivia and I, um, around the state for our work.

Finally you’ll see for policing, for example, right? That. The most recent, the Massachusetts State Police Academy graduating class is still only 10% female, right? Again, majority white. And, um, we know that for many local communities, right? This is still the case too. Very heavily male dominated, very heavily white dominated.

Where we might have a community that is not either of those things, right, or not, or mostly people of color. Um, and we [01:12:00] know that bullying and racial and sexist remarks can happen during training. Um, it can happen on the workforce, and that affects the retention of women and people of color in these professions, right?

Or even in their training to become these things, to become police officers. Um, and so I’ve seen some really interesting, I thought you guys would find these interesting. Just last week I read that the Worcester Police Department, so shout out to Central Mass. Appointed an officer as their new LGBT LGBTQ Liaison plus liaison.

Um, we know that unfortunately, you know, these folks are less willing to report crimes, um, due to past sort of traumas or bad experiences with being marginalized or not believed, right? Um, they wanna be anonymous. Um, and so. The Worcester Police Department was like, decided this is what we’re gonna do to work on this and make sure that we develop some trust within this community.

Right. Which is great to see. I also saw that the Bury Police Department, um, is actually training their officers to become more sensory friendly to better serve people who have sensory, um, right. Sense, you know, sort of sensitivity to, to [01:13:00] sound and things like that. Like, for example, people with autism or PTSD Right.

To also cater Right. Um, to a diverse set of folks. Right. And not just what we think as of as, you know, sort of the dominant, right. Um, the dominant type of person, um, that, that we tend to deal with. Um, and so these are some really interesting sort of, I think, examples of trends in the labor market and bias that we see.

Are there others that any of y’all would be willing to share or talk about?

Things like, um, nursing still pretty much being predominantly female. I.

Norma Rey Alicea: That’s right. 100%. Thank you for pointing out nursing always in demand. Right? We’re always gonna have a need for it. It’s very interesting because, um, my husband actually is a nurse, uh, and he’s a very large Latinx man from Chelsea, Massachusetts.

Um, and all the time people are like, are you sure you’re the nurse and not security? And he’s like, oh my, here we go again. Um, and so [01:14:00] definitely that being the case and, and, and given how much our population is diversifying, right? And, and, um, you know, we wanna make sure that we have, especially when we talk about young men having a hard time talking about sometimes or revealing their health issues, right?

Um, we wanna see more men, um, in that profession. A really interesting article, Eleni, as you mentioned, that, that I saw, um, just a few days ago about how. There’s this big tension now between doctors, right? Physicians, um, in our state and, uh, nurse practitioners because nurse practitioners are off, have often been doing a lot of the work that doctors are doing.

Um, and so there’s competition happening, right? Nurse practitioners make very good money. Obviously you need, um, more training after nursing, but it’s become a very popular, um, I would say, um, um, occupation amongst a lot of young people because they, they’re like, wait a second. There’s something that pays even more than a nurse.

Um, and so it’s very interesting to see the politics, right, of like what’s happening behind the scenes. [01:15:00] Um, very, very interesting stuff. But yes, absolutely need way more men, um, in those kinds of professions like nursing. Anyone else?

Hey, and I know we’re coming up on time, so I wanna make sure, and I’m so sorry. I, I, I, I’ve gone so long. I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do this quickly. Um, but I’m happy to stay along on longer if anybody wants to stay on. Um, but wanted to mention some strategies, right? And I want y’all, for you all to chime in as, as much as you’d like for this piece too.

So, strategies for confronting bias. We’ve talked about bias in a lot of different ways, right? Um, sort of all the different kinds of bias that exist, right? How we see it in sort of, in the labor market in ourselves and the organizations or schools where we work, right? In the system in general, right? In our, in our world, in the way that we name people.

And I give you a, a, a ridiculous, uh, right, or a description during a quiz. Um. So let’s talk now about how do we confront bias, right? What are some strategies we can use? The [01:16:00] first, which is very important, is using a more evidence-based approach, right? In the way that you learn, in the way your students learn and the way that you advise students, right?

So instead of relying on anecdotes and generalizations, right, use more evidence, right? And if you can stats, right? So for example, we talked about this earlier, like if a student says, I’m interested in becoming a TikTok influencer, like, talk with them about that stat I just gave you, right? And talk about the raw data, right?

Like, what does this actually mean in, in, in the real world? How many influencers are actually making enough money to live where, where you live, right? That’s important. Um, or for example, when you say like. Um, you know, these, you know, this college program will lead you to a, you know, a job that pays you well.

What do you mean by that? Like, let’s look up, if, if they’re looking at an electrician’s apprenticeship program, for example, let’s help them figure out what do electricians in your region make, whether you’re in Amherst, Massachusetts, or you’re in Brockton, Massachusetts, you’re in Boston, or wherever you [01:17:00] are, right?

Let’s look up for your region. What do electricians make? So they have a clear understanding of that, which leads to the next bullet point, right? Like, make sure you’re very clear, you define key concepts for them, and that you teach them, or you emphasize for them the importance of critical thinking skills.

This is all the more important given the the times we’re living in, right? When we look at the news, critical thinking skills. So how do you define a well-paying job? What a well-paying job for one student might be very, very different definition than for someone else, right? At next gen, we like to say a well-paying job.

One that pays at least 80% of the regional median wage. Right. But people have different definitions. Um, and that’s for folks who just graduate from a post-secondary program, right. Should pay at least 80% of the regional median wage. You also wanna make that sort of, what are the consequences financially, right.

Of their post-secondary and career choices Right. Before they make decisions. So how will they know that this particular program they’re looking at will pay off in the labor market? Right. What evidence does the program show of that? It’s important, right? Um, that they understand [01:18:00] that. The second is, it’s really important to expand your own reference base and build social capital right yourself to widen your own knowledge and opportunities for your students, right?

So diversifying your references when you talk about right careers, right? Like, so that game that we just played, like now, can you name a black scientist, right? And I actually, in the materials that I have attached to this webinar, you’ll see some examples that I give you with some, some links to who they are and their biography.

So, um, so that you can use those, um, moving forward. But, you know, make sure that you have as many references from as many different backgrounds as possible. Um, connect students with professionals, um, with whom they can identify in different ways and not. Um, it’s important for them to see people that look like them in certain jobs and people that don’t.

Because if, you know, sometimes you can’t, you know, get representation. You’re gonna be the first or you’re gonna have to work towards being the first in the room, and that’s okay too. Right? And so how do you do that? Um, that’s important. Encouraging them to get internships and other work-based learning opportunities, right?

[01:19:00] Because that’s where they can start to create networks maybe in places they didn’t have them and increase their chances of getting hired after they complete whatever post-secondary program they start. Third is ask students about the biases that affect them, right? Within themselves, within their guardians, their families, their friends, the systems that they’re a part of, right?

So I like to do this thing where with students, I played a game with them where I asked them to react to words, kind of like what I did with you all today. Or phrases like if I say going to community college, what’s an adjective you would use, right. Um, to describe that for you, right? Or moving away from home or male nurse.

To your point, Lenny, right? Um, or I’m smart, right? Like what, what, what comes to mind when, when I say that to them? Right? And so it’s really gauging sort of how they, what their own feelings are and how they think about things. It gives you a really unique perspective, I think. And then question them as to why they’re interested in certain career paths.

So not just like, what are you interested in, but why? Is it because your mom said that that would be a good career for you? Is it because your friends say that you have good [01:20:00] skills that would lead to that kind of job and you doing well in that job? Is it because it just pays a lot of money? Is it because, you know, what are the reasons, right?

It’s important to get into, is it the lifestyle? What are the reasons that’s important to understand?

And then fourth, you know, I find this actually really inspiring, um, when I, when I’ve worked with students, is teaching them about the effects of bias. So showing them some of the stats that I just presented to you, because I think it can fuel a fire in them to be like, wait a second. So you’re telling me that.

There aren’t that many male nurses, but it pays well, it sounds like something I might wanna do. Hold on a second, right? Like, or I could be one of the first, you know, men of color I know who’s a male nurse, or I could be right? Or I could work against being one of those that show a bias in a certain way because I grew up in the neighborhood and I, I, you know, I, I, I don’t wanna treat people a certain way because of who they are.

Like, you know, being able to kind of light that fire under them, I think can be really helpful. And it also teaches them about what’s going on in [01:21:00] society, right? And how to advocate for themselves and for other people. And I think that’s an important skill too. Number five, encouraging students to explore a wider range of career paths, right?

To think about things beyond, again, what I said earlier, uh, beyond their bubble, right? So, and to think about things a little bit differently. So, for example, when I was growing up. I always thought of corporate jobs as you know, not really community based and not really helping people, right? That’s, those are not jobs that help people.

They’re very cold and they’re all about making money. And then it wasn’t until I got older that I realized that I have friends who work in corporate jobs and they do more to help their communities on a wide scale. On a big scale, right? And a large scale than some people I know that do other kinds of work.

And it’s because there’s corporate jobs, there’s a whole gamut of them, right? And there are people that work for banks, but they work in a community relations part of the bank, and they give money to communities, lots of money. And so to think about things differently, right, than they might, they might think about them traditionally.

And then to question your own biases, right? So I like to say, right, like think about how [01:22:00] does your own identity, your own background impact the way that you interact with students and how they interact with you, right? Do those things affect the ability to build trust? Right. Do you listen enough, right. Or do you share your cultural resume, this is what I call it, sharing your cultural resume is like when somebody says to you something and then you’re like, well, I, you know, I, you know, I was once in a Nigerian restaurant, Abla, and then I also have my roommate.

What? And it’s like, you go on this whole tangent and it’s like you’re trying to get some sort of point of connection, but it’s sometimes coming off not the right way and you’re just not listening. Right. And that’s important, um, to think about that and not getting too defensive, right? Like, just trying to learn.

Right. And, um, that’s important, you know? How do your own experiences, including your own work experience affect how you advise students about careers? I have literally heard counselors say, are you sure you wanna be a teacher or a counselor? Like, oh girl. You know what I mean? Because they, they have their own trauma about that.

Right? Or they’re, they’re like broke and they’re like, this is really hard work and it’s tough and blah. Right? And so we have our own biases that we [01:23:00] bring into these things, right? Et cetera. Then finally, you know, acknowledge what you don’t know or understand, right? Apologize for anything you say that’s off or incorrect or offensive, right?

Remember that you might have good intentions, but that doesn’t mean that things don’t hurt people or that you know that that’s the same as actually making a change or making a difference, right? Um, forgive yourself for mistakes you’ve made maybe in along this learning process and start tomorrow with a more informed lens, right?

So, here’s some, some sentences that I like to talk with, um, you know, staff about using, right? If you’re not sure how to approach. Maybe something that you said that wasn’t right, or where you’re feeling confused about something, where you can say things like, you know, I’ve never experienced being X, Y, and Z.

Right? So like how did, how did that make you feel? Like, I wanna support you, I want you to know that you being different is what makes you so special is brings a different perspective. That’s an asset to that room, right. When you’re in it, right. And giving students that understanding. Right. Coming at it from that [01:24:00] angle or saying like, I didn’t realize how.

The things that we’re seeing in the news affect your specific community in a different way than they affect everybody else, right? Like, can you tell me more about that? I’m, I’m sorry that you’re experiencing that. Right. Like, help me learn more. Right. I can learn from you too. So those are some, I think, helpful ways to think about, um, confronting bias and, and talking about it, um, and trying to minimize it as much as possible and just constantly learning, right?

We’re all constantly learning. No matter how old I get, I’m constantly learning no matter what texture, my neck, my, my, the skin on my neck is, I’m still learning every day. Um, anyone else, any other strategies you’ve seen or, or just, or just takeaways from today that you’d like to share

to, um, one of the points you made, um, about. Students having their own biases about certain careers. Um, I had like five or six students in my office the other day and there were three Latinos who said they wanted to get into policing [01:25:00] and one Latina said, then you are a traitor to, um, your own people.

Mm-hmm. To which I jumped in and said I might not be. Um, you know, I, I know I’m an old white lady, but what I do know is that if we don’t start being the change, then you can continue to expect to see the same people doing the same jobs and getting the same things. Mm-hmm. You’re not a trader to your per your people, if you wanna get into a situation where you can improve it and make it better.

Norma Rey Alicea: Change the system, everybody. That’s right. Exactly. That’s right. Absolutely. And, and I have to say, I have to admit, I was one of those students that would’ve said something like that when I was 15 years old. Honest, honestly, I probably would’ve because of the things that I dealt with growing up and I saw and I experienced from the police in my community.

But again, it’s like as we grow older, we learn, right? And we see it and, and absolutely. And there’s, there are ways to make change from the outside, which is important. And then there are ways to make change from the inside. And as long as policing exists, right? Like the, the, the only way to see some of these things be better [01:26:00] is if we diversify the force so that we get those perspectives right, and that we all treat each other right with the same compassion and understanding.

Right. Um, because we work together and not in silos. Right? Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Anyone else, any other takeaways from today?

While you’re thinking about that, this is my dog, Julian, who’s behind me snoring right now. But I, I put his photo on here, not only because he’s the cutest dog on the face of the planet, but because also pit bulls, there’s a lot of bias against them, as you all know. There’s actually, the uk, um, has put a ban on them.

You know, a lot of people have negative, uh, feelings about them when meanwhile they are the sweetest dogs in the world. Um, it’s just like they always say, right? It’s, it’s all about the owner. Right? Um, but wanted to put his little face there to, to end, end, end on that note today. But any, any other things anybody wants to share?

Any takeaways?[01:27:00]

This is, this is my contact info if you wanna reach out. Um, NextGen, we are a nonprofit. Uh, we have, again, tools for counselors and professional development like this one that we do. We would love to partner with you. If your your school, your organization is interested, please reach out to me. Um, shout out to IV on this call.

Feel free to reach out to her as well. Um, um, but thank you all so much for, uh, for being a part of this important webinar and, and, and, and really talking about something that I don’t think we’re talking about enough in this field and for, for giving me new ideas and, and new experiences I can talk about with people and perspectives.

Anyone, any last.