Returning to Repayment on Federal Student Loans

Host Jonathan Hughes is joined by Betsy Mayotte, President and Founder of The Institute of Student Loan Advisors (TISLA), who discusses when Federal Student Loans will re-enter repayment, what this means for borrowers, and what borrowers can do now to be prepared ahead of time.

On this episode of the MEFA Podcast, MEFA's Associate Director of College Planning and Content Creation Jonathan Hughes is joined by Betsy Mayotte, President and Founder of The Institute of Student Loan Advisors (TISLA), and Julie Shields-Rutyna, Director of College Planning, Education, and Training at MEFA. Betsy discusses when Federal Student Loans will re-enter repayment, what this means for borrowers, and what borrowers can do now to be prepared ahead of time. Jonathan and Julie answer listeners’ recent FAFSA questions, including if you should accept work-study and how to let colleges know about income changes.

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Resources Mentioned in this Episode

MEFA’s College Financing Webinars

Understanding the CARES Act

Returning to Repayment Webinar with Betsy Mayotte

Student Aid Loan Simulator

Free Student Loan Advice/ TISLA website


Jonathan Hughes: Hi everyone. And welcome to the MEFA Podcast. I'm Jonathan Hughes. Julie, how are you?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: I'm doing great.
Jonathan Hughes: Okay. Doing pretty well. I'm very excited about this show because we've got another great guest this week, founder and president of the Institute of Student Loan Advisors, Betsy Mayotte will be joining us.
And there's just about nobody who knows more about student loans than Betsy. She's contributed to the U.S News and World Report, Huff Post, and Yahoo among others, and is always a coveted speaker in person at any conference at which she appears. And Julie, what is she going to be discussing with us?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. So she'll be discussing the end of the Federal Student Loans repayment freeze. And that COVID relief package and the resumption of repayment, as well as some of the new changes to the Federal Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. And as you know, there is nobody better to talk about these things than Betsy. So you definitely want to stick around.
Jonathan Hughes: Absolutely. So before we get to that though, I thought we would say about the FAFSA today. Now, why should we talk about the FAFSA? Well, because starting October 1st, parents of seniors in high school and anyone else who's attending college next year and wants financial aid, have been able to file the FAFSA.
And so this is the beginning of financial season really, and as such MEFA has been hosting webinars on college financing. And it's not an exaggeration to say that thousands of people have attended those webinars and they have questions. So we thought it would be a good idea to go over some of the more popular questions that we've been getting, as you probably have those questions too.
And we're going to skip our mailbag today because these are all kind of mailbag questions, but having said that, Julie, let's go to our first question. All right. So I'm going to ask you again. This is a stump the band situation here. Big question that we get, what do I do if my 2020 income is much higher than my 2021 income?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: That is a big question we get. And in fact, when I received it, we've always received that question, but it seems even more common since COVID and all of that. So basically, if you're filing your FAFSA this year, you are going to use your 2020 tax return information, no matter what. So just complete the form using that information. But then you can always let the financial aid offices know that you have, there's been a change and that you know, for your family, a big difference. One way that some families can let the financial aid offices know is if they also need to file the CSS Profile form. Some colleges require there is a space where families can write in that information and give that additional information.
But if you're applying to a school that just requires the FAFSA, then you might want to send a separate letter up to the colleges that you're applying to just making them aware of that change and that difference. And then they will be in touch with you to let you know further steps.
Jonathan Hughes: Excellent. Yeah. And that hits upon one of our main themes that we talk about a lot, which is talk to the financial aid office.
The financial aid office is a resource for you at anything that doesn't fit in the confines of the FAFSA. So that's one of the things you'll hear us talk about a lot. So moving on to the next question, and this is good because I saw this question come in and I wanted to know the answer to it.
So does my son need to register for selective service to be eligible for financial aid?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Because I have been in financial aid, which is a very long time. That question has been on the FAFSA. And the answer used to be, yes, that males over 18 had to be registered for the selective service. But that question is going away on the FAFSA.
So although it's still asked about, this year is an optional question and it will be going away in the future. So that is no longer something that is tied to your application for federal aid.
Jonathan Hughes: So you say it's going away. It's still on the FAFSA now. So if you're filing it now and you want financial aid, do you have to say yes to that?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: No, that question is just not going to be looked at this year. So, you know, put whatever is true and it's just not going to be counted this year. Financial aid offices are not using that question this year. We won't be using it in the future, but in the parents yard, the question won't even be asked, which will be less confusing.
Jonathan Hughes: And it's just in case anybody doesn't know. Could you just tell them what selective services are?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Males registering for the draft. And it used to be, I don't really know why, I never really knew. I never really had a good answer as to why that was connected to the financial aid form. But it has been.
Jonathan Hughes: There’s a question on the FAFSA. And I think it's right after you start listing your colleges, does the student plan to live on campus? So a lot of times people are not really sure of their plans or their children's plans. So we get that question a lot. What should I do?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yes. People to make a choice. That would be your ideal choice. So of course you won't know until you receive your financial aid offer back.
Do you have enough money that's going to cover costs for you to live on campus or will it be more cost-effective to live at home? You'll make all those choices, but I guess when you're completing the FAFSA, it's best to just choose what would be your first choice? Well, I'd liked to live on campus.
Great. Then choose that. And there's plenty of times, if you do change that, then costs change, your financial aid offer can change, all of that. Don't worry about it. But putting your answer as your first choice of what you would like to, would you like to live on campus at that institution then choose yes. Or if you know for a fact you're going to be living at home, you could choose no.
Jonathan Hughes: And so just to ask a follow-up, which I know is a lot of the times on the minds of parents. Does this affect financial aid, if they say yes or no one way or the other?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Because housing is a big cost, yes, it does affect financial aid. And in fact, you would potentially be offered more aid if you're living on campus. So that's important.
Jonathan Hughes: Okay, good to know. Another question that I think of as being sort of tied to those questions, it's very similar and it's one that I got the other day. The FAFSA asks also, if you want to be considered for work study, do you want to be eligible for work study?
And I had a parent who could not figure out what to put for that question. Could you explain that question a little bit?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. So as people may know, Federal Work Study is a program where when a student starts college, that they are able to get a job many times on campus or working for someone on campus, and you know, work 10 to 12 hours per week and then receive a paycheck.
And they use that usually for personal miscellaneous expenses. Maybe some books, things like that. And all the research shows that students who have a little bit of work, do work a little bit, you know, something like 10 to 12 hours a week, it ends up being a real positive for them. They end up making connections on campus and making connections with some adults on campus.
And, you know, sometimes they find interesting work or sometimes they find work that, you know, they're sitting at the front desk of the library, checking people in, but they can get their homework done. So there are lots of options. So it can be a really positive chance to earn some extra money.
So I would say yes. Because then if you're offered work study, that's potentially something great. And then if you don't choose to get a job, that's fine. If you don't access the work study and get a job, then halfway through the year, they might ask you, do you plan to, and if you say no, they'll give it to someone else.
So there's no harm in saying yes. And a really important piece that might've been a follow-up John, is that if you say no, it doesn't mean you're going to get any more grant money or any more money in any other form. And I think that's a thing that I recognize.
Jonathan Hughes: Yes. So that was exactly the question that the parent I was talking to had, and I was telling them that I was going to ask you, does that mean more and in another way. So good, I'm glad you answered. Oh, good one coming up next. Do I include a graduate student in the household as a child that will be in college next year. Okay. So I'm wondering if you could actually just reference the question first and then the answer. Cause I think that may confuse some people.
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Okay, yeah. So, I'll just say, when a student is a graduate student, they're automatically dependent.
So if there's a graduate student in the family, that student will be applying for his or her own financial aid, which is great. But then how do you as parents and students of an undergraduate student, how do you complete the FAFSA? And the truth is if the graduate student is living in your household and you are providing more than half of their support, you can list them as a member of your household and the students. So that's great.
Jonathan Hughes: And then, so, if you just explain the impact of why that would matter if they were a part of your house.
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. In the financial aid formula, when the colleges are trying to determine how much you're able to pay toward college expenses, they look at a lot of things.
And one of the things they looked at is how many people are in your household and how many students are in college at one time, because those things affect how much available income you would have, or discretionary income, to be able to pay. So those things factor in. So that's important that you can put that graduate student as a member of your household, as long as you're paying more than half the expenses.
Jonathan Hughes: We’ll end on this one. This will be our sort of timely question. Do I need to report stimulus money on the FAFSA?
Julie Shields-Rutyna: And the answer is no. So that's a great thing. Here is the guidance from the Department of Education that says, no, you do not need to report your stimulus money on the FAFSA. Similar stimulus checks or federal coronavirus related grants should not be input on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid form as income in any way, taxable or untaxed income.
However, you should list the full amount of funds in your bank account at the time you're completing the FAFSA form regardless of where the funding originated.
Jonathan Hughes: Okay. So that makes sense. So it doesn't show up as income, but if the money is in a bank account or in an asset of yours, it would be expected to be reported as that.
Okay, well, that does it for the FAFSA questions. If you have any questions, remember, you can please reach out to us at, or you can call us at 1-800-449-MEFA. We have a bench of college guidance experts ready to answer your questions. You can also reach us at social media on Facebook at /MEFAMA and Twitter at mefatweets. And finally, on Instagram at mefa_ma.
Now let's go to my conversation with the President and Founder of the Institute of Student Loan Advisors. Betsy Mayotte is the Founder and President of the Institute of Student Loan Advisors, a resource which gives student loan borrowers access to free, fair student loan advice and dispute resolution.
She's also regularly quoted in the media on student loan issues, including in the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and the Boston Globe. And has contributed articles to the U.S. News and World Report, Yahoo, and Huff Post among others, including that Newsweek Magazine that you see behind her.
That's the cover story that they are quoted in. And I say all of this just to say how lucky we are to have her here with us today to discuss the resumption of federal student loan repayment as paused with the CARES Act. So Betsy, thank you for joining us.
Betsy Mayotte: Thank you for having me, Jonathan, I love talking about this stuff. I'm really glad that we're going to get this information out to your audience. It's really important.
Jonathan Hughes: I wonder if you could talk, because I did mention, you know, some of your background, but I don't think I quite yet. Could you just explain what led you, you know, your path and what led you to create the Institute of Student Loans?
Betsy Mayotte: The answer I sometimes give people is, you know, my father had a career in credit union leadership and my mother was a teacher.
So I tell people that education finance was my genetic destiny. But the truth of the matter is I've been involved in the student loan industry since the dinosaurs roamed, it feels like. It's been over 25 years at this point. And I spent the majority of my career as a compliance officer at a large nonprofit student loan organization in Boston.
And over the course of my career as a compliance officer, you know, my job was to have sort of a nerd level knowledge of student loan regulations and laws in order to make sure the company was doing what it was supposed to. But as sort of a side effect of that, I realized that because I had that detailed understanding of the regulations that could also be really helpful to borrowers.
So it started with, you know, sort of me getting the more complex cases on my desk. And then gradually I was lucky enough to work for leadership that let me evolve my role. So while state as a compliance officer, I also branched out into student loan borrower advocacy, and during that, and it was, I felt the two things went really great together because not only was I able to use my knowledge to help borrowers to have an impact.
But also seeing the way the regulations affected people in real life helped me as a compliance officer, because when I had the opportunity to influence those regulations, I had that experience to, you know, sort of submit as part of the conversation. So during that time I came to the, what I learned was that there were, first of all, that there were a lot of scams that were developing out there that borrowers were falling victim to. And then I noticed a lot of people were asking student loan questions on social media and that phonics to me, like, why would you ask questions to internet strangers where you don't know their credentials on something so important?
And so that led me to believe between the scams and that experience, that consumers were looking for a third party that had no vested interest in their loans that could provide them with expert advice. And they knew that it was neutral and safe and correct. And I looked around for someone that was doing that kind of work. And I couldn't find anyone. So I decided to found TISLA and here we are.
Jonathan Hughes: And it's a free resource as well, right?
Betsy Mayotte: That's our, we're a 501 C3 charity. So anyone can email us with their questions or if they have a dispute and we answer most emails within a business day, and there's zero charge for that. We will never charge borrowers for anything.
Jonathan Hughes: We're going to be talking about this student loan repayment pause, and that is coming to an end. So can you tell us how this came about in the first place?
Betsy Mayotte: Yeah. So this is just the past, like two years in student loans. It's just been really interesting and exciting because there's been several things that have happened.
That nothing anywhere close to that has happened in my entire career. And, you know, let's start with these student loan repayment waivers that came as a result of the pandemic. Now, you know, prior to COVID, I've been through my share of disasters in the student loan industry. Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, the California wildfires.
And there has always been some sort of relief offered to Federal Student Loan borrowers, but that was in the form of a forbearance. So interest accrued, it was usually only for 90 days. So when the CARES act waivers came out, this was really unprecedented because, so technically they're calling it a forbearance. I'm calling it a waiver because it doesn't act like any other forbearance a borrower might recognize.
So, not only did it put payments on hold, it gave the borrower 0% interest. So they're not harmed because the payments are on hold and interest is still accruing. It also is showing up on their credit report, like they're in a repayment status and in good standing.
So it's not only not harming the borrower because the loans are on hold. In some cases, it might actually be helping them, especially if maybe they were in, they had their payment pause due to financial hardship prior to these months also count towards the number of payments you need to get forgiveness under either public service loan forgiveness, and temporary expansion of PSLF or the income driven plans.
As long as you're fulfilling the other criteria such as working full-time for an eligible employer, they're going to give you a credit, just like you made a payment. In fact, I've worked with dozens, if not hundreds of people, that have received forgiveness during COVID utilizing the COVID months. The COVID waiver is also for borrowers that may have defaulted during COVID.
Some of those defaults are being reversed because of these CARES act waivers. If the borrower was already in default, there's a program called rehabilitation where if you make nine payments on time in a row, they'll reverse the default and lower the collection costs. These covered waivers are counting for those rehabs as well.
So those people that have been able to get out of default without having to make those nine payments, the fact that they've extended those waivers to over a year and a half, is really something. I've worked with a lot of borrowers that have said that they would have defaulted because their income was significantly reduced due to the pandemic.
And I've talked to other borrowers that have paid off or taken a huge chunk out of their loans because they've been enjoying a 0% interest rate. So it's just had a real positive impact on thousands and thousands and thousands of people.
Jonathan Hughes: Well, I can tell you that one of those people is me. I actually paid off my student loan during this time due to, in least in part, to that 0% interest.
So I know it's been very generous to people. I didn't know it was quite as generous as that. Can you tell us, when is this coming to an end and what can borrowers expect?
Betsy Mayotte: Right. So at the last extension, they announced that it was going to be the last extension they would have, January 31st, 2022.
And they made it very clear that they do not expect to have any more extensions. So I know that borrowers are starting to ask me, oh, I think they might extend it again. Don't count on it, they are not going to extend it again. And there's a couple of reasons for that. For one, the pandemic is, you know, where the restrictions are.
I mean, it sort of ebbs and flows a little bit on a day-to-day, but for the most part, the big hits are winding down and things are starting to open up again. But there's also a downside to what they did. And I think this is a big part of why they said no more after this. While what they did provided immediate relief in a pretty simple way, like people didn't have to apply for it. For example, they just sort of gave it to everybody. There's a lot of research out there that shows that a big indicator of successful student loan management is simply the borrowers that make their first, 12 or 24 payments on time. Those people are way, way less likely to default than others.
And what that's about, it's about the habit of repaying. Just getting in the habit of repayment. And that's one of the, what's part of the psychology behind that loan rehabilitation program that I mentioned to you before is the reason you have to make nine consecutive payments, is part of it is showing good faith, but the other part is getting you back in the habit of making the payment.
And we've taken people that have been in the habit of making a payment out of that habit for almost two years. So the longer that goes, the harder it's going to be to get back in that habit. The other thing, the longer it goes, the more people move and maybe they don't remember to update their contact information to their loan holder.
So there's a lot of reasons why there it's unlikely they're going to extend again. One of the other issues is we've got 42 million people, all being taken off this waiver at the same time. Now I know that the department of education and the servicers have been working very hard to prepare for this, but the fact of the matter is you can’t prepare for this.
It's going to be a tidal wave and I think people are, borrowers are going to have, might experience extended wait times, reaching their loan servicers to ask questions. They should expect to have experienced longer wait times getting paperwork processed, like if they have to apply for a lower payment option or a deferment.
And I think that in and of itself might lead to an increase in delinquency and default. So I'm a little bit nervous about that. And again, I think it's something we're going to experience. It's going to take a while for the dust to settle on that. Now borrowers can avoid some being negatively impacted by my predicted delays, which again, I really, really hope I'm wrong, by starting to get ready.
You know, no later than like the middle of November, they should be looking. Can I afford my payment. If I can't, what payment plan should I get on? And then be ready to submit their paperwork for that repayment plan or deferment, whatever it is they need, probably by the middle of December no later than the beginning of January.
Jonathan Hughes: If they're doing that, if they're looking in mid-November and they're trying to figure this out, can they actually contact their servicer and be counseled on which option is going to be the best for them before?
Betsy Mayotte: Yeah, a thousand percent. Yes. There are, servicers can go through the different repayment options with them.
If the borrower's ready with some numbers, meaning they should, what they should at the bars should have in front of them is there, or at least a ballpark adjusted gross income. Understanding what their family size is, having a general idea of what they can afford, whether, if they are married, whether their spouse has student loans, because that can be part of the calculation and what their spouse's income might be.
Those kinds, if they have that stuff ready, or even if they don't, again, at least if they have a ballpark, then their servicer can go through all the options and give them an estimate of what their payment would be under those different plans. Now, the borrower can also do this all by themselves. If they don't, if you're like me and hate getting on the telephone, if you go to, they have something called the Loan Simulator.
And you can plug your numbers in and it will give you an estimate. Not only of what your payment will be, but also if you stayed on that plan, but the total amount you'd pay out of pocket over time. And if you are pursuing a loan forgiveness program, whether you would end up with forgiveness in the end. But the most important number of what I just listed is the amount you pay over time.
Jonathan Hughes: And why is that?
Betsy Mayotte: Well, the name of the game is to pay the least amount over time. So some people get hyper-focused on either getting the lowest payment possible or loan forgiveness, and, you know, unless you are pursuing loan forgiveness and are pretty confident you actually will get forgiveness in the end, choosing the lowest monthly payment usually means paying the most out of pocket. Interest accrues on student loans on a daily basis. And there is no minimum interest amount. So the quicker you pay the loan off, usually the least amount of interest you pay over time.
Jonathan Hughes: Now, I think, I feel like this is probably a good time to sort of back up a little bit again and just clarify. With loans that borrowers may have are effected by everything that we're talking about here in which loans are not really.
Betsy Mayotte: Really, really good question. What we've been talking about for the most part are Federal Student Loans. And within the Federal Student Loans, there is multiple federal loan programs, which can cause some confusion.
Uh, so back before 2010, there were two primary Federal Student Loan programs and they were both exactly the same except where they were doing. One program was called the Direct Loan program and the other was called the Federal Family Education Loan program, or the FEL. Now the third major one is Perkins.
And we'll just put that over, we'll park that one over here for a minute. FEL and Direct Loans. They both have Stafford loans. They both have Parent Plus Loans. They both have Grad Plus loans. They both did consolidations. And back then the terms of conditions were pretty close to identical. Whether you got a FEl or Direct Loan was not a choice that you, the consumer had.
It was based on what the school participated in, the school could either participate in one or the other. And up until about 2009, at least 80% of the schools utilized the FEL. And then in 2010, Congress got rid of it. So if all your loans were taken out after 2010, you, you have Direct Loans.
If they were any were taken out prior, it could be either one. And for the COVID waivers, COVID waivers were only applied in, this is again where it gets confusing for people, to federally held Federal Student Loans. And what that means is all Direct Loans and a small portion of the FEL and Perkins that have over the years had been sold to the Department of Education.
Most Federal Perkins are what we call commercially held. Perkins loans are held by the school and FEL loans are held by a private lender. They are federal loans, but they're held by a private lender. And those were not eligible for any of the COVID waivers. Now there's also private loans and state loans.
There's also institutional loans. Those were never eligible for the COVID waivers and whatever relief was made available to them was dependent on the lender and what they chose.
Jonathan Hughes: Excellent. Okay. Now, if you're not sure what type of federal loans that you have, if you have those Direct Loans, or if you have those privately held federal loans, or even if you have private loans, how can you find out?
Betsy Mayotte: So all your Federal Loans are listed on the Department of Education's website, which is And if you're not, if you have loans prior to 2010, you don't know if they're FEL or Direct, you can log in there and you can tell that the. The easiest thing to do is call your loan holder, your servicer, and ask them, do I have FEL or do I have Direct? And they'll tell you. Private loans aren't going to show up at You would find them the best, if you don't know where they are, you don't know who holds them, check your credit.
Jonathan Hughes: Can you explain basically who a servicer is, what it is? And if somebody doesn't know who their servicer is, what can they do?
Betsy Mayotte: Sure. A servicer is essentially a contractor that's been hired by the lender. And in some cases, that lender is the Federal Department of Education. In the Direct Loan program, the lender is the federal government. So as servicer, as a contractor, that's been hired to maintain the loan and collect the loan.
So they're the ones that are going to answer your questions if you cal. They're the ones that are processing your payments, they're the ones that are billing you for your payment. And up until the loan actually defaults if you become delinquent on your payments, they're the ones that are going to be sending you those new reminder letters or making nudge reminder phone calls too.
And also to try to help you get current, or if you need a deferment, and that kind of thing. And if you don't know who your servicer is,, it will tell you who the servicer is. And the contact information for that.
Jonathan Hughes: What do you think students or graduates, maybe some of whom haven't made payments yet, what will they expect to be seeing in terms of notifications, or you know, messages from their service leading up to their assumption of repayment?
Betsy Mayotte: Well, before I answer that, I think this is a great time to remind people that now is a great time to make extra sure that the Department of Eeducation and your loan servicer have up-to-date contact information. Because they're already starting to send out reminders and informational letters and emails to borrowers in anticipation of the ending of the COVID waivers at the end of January.
So if you don't, if they don't have you up-to-date. You're not going to get that information and not getting that information. If you ended up going delinquent because of it because you didn't realize that you needed it, your payment's due again, that's not a defense to default, so it could negatively affect your credit in a real way.
Even in either a mild way, just by showing you are 90 days delinquent or in a huge way, if you do end up defaulting. So you want to make sure they have up-to-date contact information. And then you want to make sure that you open your mail. If you're like me, who, you know, pays all their bills online, it can sometimes take a minute for you to open your mail.
So if you have student loans, you want to make sure that you're opening all your mail, especially between now and the end of January, because it's going to tell you, they're going to tell you when your next payment's going to be due. It could be February. It might actually not be till March, depending on how the way things fall in the cycles.
It's going to give you information about income driven plans and how to apply for them. And who's eligible for them, information about deferment. If the, you know, there's been a, you mentioned there's been a lot of news about servicers lately. A lot of that news is around services playing in student loans anymore.
So, loans are transferring to different servicers. These letters are going to let you know if your loan transferred and the contact information for who that new servicer is. So, and again, the department of that I believe is already in the servicers are starting to send that information out within the next couple of weeks.
Jonathan Hughes: I wanted to ask one more thing, and it's not about the resumption of federal student loan payment. It's about the sort of the other federal loan topic that is frequently discussed in the media. And that is the Public Service Loan Forgiveness option. And you alluded to that earlier, and I know there's been some significant and temporary changes, and I don't know if you wanted to discuss the changes or not.
Betsy Mayotte: Yeah. I mean, listen, this topic by itself. How long has the podcast? We've got like five, six hours, right? We have it all written out. I would like to say in plain English. And we also have an FAQ document that also contains case studies. I don't know, shameless plug, on our website, which is
So if they go to Go to the forgiveness tab, they'll see public service loan forgiveness, and all the things, plus more explanation and a link to that FAQ document. They're all right there for you.
Jonathan Hughes:
Betsy Mayotte: Right. And then if they have questions, even after that, just go to our contact page and email us through the contact page.
And like I said, we answer most questions within a business day.
Jonathan Hughes: Thank you so much. This was as great as I thought it was going to be. And so it's great to see you again. Great to have this conversation. And good to have this resource for folks who may need it. And so hopefully you'll come back and talk about Public Student.
Betsy Mayotte: I love talking about this stuff. So whenever you like, let's do it.
Jonathan Hughes: Thank you so much, Betsy.
Betsy Mayotte: Have a good day. Thank you. Thanks.
Jonathan Hughes: All right. Well, that is our show. Everyone, Julie, thanks for answering all those questions today.
Julie Shields-Rutyna: Happily, love it.
Jonathan Hughes: Remember if you liked the show, please follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you're hearing this.
And if you could do us an extra favor and give us a five-star rating, that would help us out a lot. Until next time, goodbye everybody.

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